US ambassador killed over a film

[Ashock]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/chri...49456.html

Ok, so let's suppose that most Muslims are peaceful, like so many people claim. Let's suppose that Islam is a religion of peace like so many more claim.

If that is the case, who killed the embassador over a movie depicting Muhammed in a negative light? Terrorists? Or maybe this was not done because of religion and Muhammed is not a religious figure in Islam?

Sure looks like regular run of the mill Muslims. Sure looks like this is done in the name of Islam.

Even more importantly, who is rioting en masse over this movie? A movie!

Oops, sorry, the source is a REPUBLICAN MOUTHPEACE..... oh, wai.......

[Jester]

Do we similarly blame all of Christianity whenever any Christians go off and murder people in the name of their Lord?

Probably also worth pointing out that Libya is still basically in a state of civil war, in which the US intervened on the other side...

-Jester

[eppie]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/chri...49456.html

Ok, so let's suppose that most Muslims are peaceful, like so many people claim. Let's suppose that Islam is a religion of peace like so many more claim.

If that is the case, who killed the embassador over a movie depicting Muhammed in a negative light? Terrorists? Or maybe this was not done because of religion and Muhammed is not a religious figure in Islam?

Sure looks like regular run of the mill Muslims. Sure looks like this is done in the name of Islam.

Even more importantly, who is rioting en masse over this movie? A movie!

Oops, sorry, the source is a REPUBLICAN MOUTHPEACE..... oh, wai.......

tttrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrroooollllllllllll.......

Come on Ashock, even you can do better than this.

But you are right....religions of peace don't exist.

[DeeBye]

Roughly 1.57 billion Muslims did not kill a US ambassador over a film.

[shoju]

Well first, It wasn't "just" a movie. It was a movie, depicting Mohammad a pedophile, and several other manners of nasty.

I have every reason to believe that every Muslim was upset about it. They hold the prophets, Not Just Mohammad, but also Moses, and in their eyes Jesus, as well as other prophets of the Christian Old Testament in high regard, and feel that by creating a likeness of their image is blasphemous and idolotry. Create a film like that and replace Mohammad with Jesus, and you are going to have a whole knew group of angry God loving Humans ready to riot. It will probably draw out some of the crazies from under their beds as well.

As for who actually carried out the killing, reading CNN.com's take, there is talk that Libyan Extremists stormed the compound in the middle of a protest being carried out by normal muslims.

And like Jester pointed out, do you blame every christian for the horrible atrocities that their extremists have carried out? We'll use not so ancient history as our gauge.

We'll start in the 80's, when "Christian Extremists" bombed multiple Abortion Clinics, and murdered Doctors who had performed abortions. Do you villify all christians because of those nutjobs?

We can then move to the late 80's, and the 90's, when "Gay Bashing" was not just "Speaking poorly about Homosexuals", but was really "Bashing" as in beating them severely, and in some cases, to death. Do you blame all christians for that?

We can then fast forward to the most recent decade, and stare in pure amazement at the Westboro Baptist Church. Do you think all Christians are like that?

I was born, and raised in a lot of the batshit crazy 80's and 90's. My father was a pastor, who left his church when the batshit crazy got to a point where even he, a shrewdly religious man who holds the values of the bible as laws for life, just couldn't defend some of the actions anymore. Trust me, there are extremists everywhere, but the Media fearmongering machine has really done a job on the Muslim community.

Extremists do not define any "religious group" any more than extremists in politics define their political parties. They end up being the loudest, and most bombastic, because they will go to... "The Extreme" for their beliefs.

[Ashock]

Do we similarly blame all of Christianity whenever any Christians go off and murder people in the name of their Lord?

Probably also worth pointing out that Libya is still basically in a state of civil war, in which the US intervened on the other side...

-Jester

Please tell me about those events. I do not consider a single retard, even a religious one, who bombs an abortion clinic, to be enough of a population slice to represent his religion.
Oh, and the Inquisition does not count any more. It's been a few years.

OTOH, look at the number of Muslims rioting. Or do you call these riots peaceful protests?

When is the last time you saw peaceful protests like that from a group of Christians or for that matter ANY other religion except the "religion of peace"?

Stop pretending that this is perfectly normal and acceptible, because that is exactly what you are doing.

[shoju]

Do we similarly blame all of Christianity whenever any Christians go off and murder people in the name of their Lord?

Probably also worth pointing out that Libya is still basically in a state of civil war, in which the US intervened on the other side...

-Jester

Please tell me about those events. I do not consider a single retard, even a religious one, who bombs an abortion clinic, to be enough of a population slice to represent his religion.
Oh, and the Inquisition does not count any more. It's been a few years.

OTOH, look at the number of Muslims rioting. Or do you call these riots peaceful protests?

When is the last time you saw peaceful protests like that from a group of Christians or for that matter ANY other religion except the "religion of peace"?

Stop pretending that this is perfectly normal and acceptible, because that is exactly what you are doing.

Wait... So you don't consider the bombing of an abortion clinic to be "enough of a slice" ?

This outlines 6 murders, 9 Attempted Murders, 18 Bombing attacks / Attempts, and 655 counts of false Bioterror claims against Abortion Clinics.

That's... Just a slice? Violence that has happened in 4 countries, on 2 continents? That's.... JUST A SLICE?

Are you then going to go ahead and discount the Gay bashing, and the Westboro baptist Church, and David Koresh, and the Church pastors who have come out and said things like "Beat your child's "Limp Wrist", and "Gays should be put behind a wall so that they can die out"?

What about the "boot camps" that Christian Organizations run to "cure the gay?"

What about This?, Or this?, Or this?, Or this?, Or this?

What about a congregation of 250+ that wanted to take an offering on a Sunday morning (Above and Beyond their normal "Offering") for the defense of those responsible for the Christmas 1984 bombing of an abortion clinic in Pensacola Florida? For the record, I live in OHIO, You couldn't even say that it was to help people in the congregation. I was there. I remember it. My dad was mortified. I remember that the attempt to gather an offering happened a month or so later, and by summer, my dad had resigned from the church, and we had moved onto another church.

The difference between Christian Terrorism, and most Islamic Terrorism isn't "the religion". It's the culture of the countries in which it takes place.

I have a real problem with people who claim "Islam is not peaceful, Islam is EVIL! Islam is VIOLENT!" It really shows a disconnect between what you "think you know" and what is "real"

Islam is in the middle of a revolution that took that Christianity/Catholicism CENTURIES to go through, and it is happening at a rapid pace.

Throw in that both of these riots happened in countries that are currently in mass turmoil, and it's not surprising at all that there were riots about their religion being shit on by some idiot from the "good ol' US of A"

[DeeBye]

That's... Just a slice? Violence that has happened in 4 countries, on 2 continents? That's.... JUST A SLICE?

No, you see - they weren't true Christians and thus not representative of Christianity as a whole. Those Muslims though - they're all the same.

[Kevin]

Oh, and the Inquisition does not count any more. It's been a few years.

OTOH, look at the number of Muslims rioting. Or do you call these riots peaceful protests?

When is the last time you saw peaceful protests like that from a group of Christians or for that matter ANY other religion except the "religion of peace"?

Stop pretending that this is perfectly normal and acceptible, because that is exactly what you are doing.

Interestingly Islam was founded about 600 years after Christianity. The Inquisition was in the mid 1400's. So if religions follow a cycle, Islam is right around where Christianity was 600 years ago.

Now my biggest issue with Islam currently is that it's often the government and laws too and is imposed on believers and non believer alike. Christianity did that too (and still tries to in some places) and really Religion as Law scares me because everything you do is right and good because God/Allah/Budda/Vishnu/The Almight/whoever said so. When it's more isolated you get abortion clinic bombings and individual murders, when it's larger groups or the basis of the government you get, well you get wars, lots of wars.

Most religions same to have Laws/Commandments/etc and there are, I agree, some doozies in some of the Islamic sects. But as I said I don't want to live in any world where any of the major religions full doctrines are the laws of the land because even if they did come from a God (by whatever name) pretty much all of them agree that man is fallible and I can't believe that it was interpreted/translated/implemented as intended. I'm also fairly certainly that several of the holy books were intentionally rewritten to serve some persons agenda and hence corrupted. Allowing that to be something that followers believe CAN NOT be wrong is something history has shown to be bloody.

[FireIceTalon]

Sorry, the Inquisition STILL does count, and always will... especially in the minds of the descendants of Native Americans, who are still probably the most marginalized group still in American society, or maybe tied with African Americans. There are just as many extremists in Christianity as there are nut job Muslims, or any other religion really. If you think otherwise, you are short-sighted, plain and simple. I don't agree with shoju on much but indeed, the connect here isn't the religion itself, but the dominating culture of each nation. I just wish people would get over these silly divisions and realize who their true oppressors are. Working class Muslims need to realize they have the same class interests as Christian working class people do, and vice versa.

Anyways, glad I'm an atheist. Because personally, I think ALL organized religion sucks and is just an excuse for people to not have to think at all. Science and education for the win. I let reason and rationality rule my world, not superstition and mythology based on the will of some invisible authoritarian sky wizard that doesn't exist.

[shoju]

Another thing that people really sort of miss the boat on: Islam, is (to put it in a easy box) Christianity without the new Testament. Same God. Same Prophets. Books in the Old Testament appear in the Quran.

They even recognize Jesus Christ as a Prophet, just... Not the Son of God. The "Sharia Law" that everyone freaks out about? It's rooted in the Old Testament's Laws for the Followers of God.

Like I said, and Kevin expounded upon. Islam is going through the same revolution that Christianity and Catholicism went through, just a few hundred years later.

The world is a lot different place than it was when Christianity went through its revolution.

EDIT:
FiT, the days when I'm sure God is there, and the days I'm sure he isn't are an about 50/50. After being raised in a culture of fundamentalist Christian ideas, I find now that I struggle with just how I feel about God, and Religion.

[FireIceTalon]

It is my understanding that this latest attack wasn't from regular Muslim protestors anyway, but from actual Terrorists who planned this out, as a strike to occur specifically for the 9-11 anniversary.

[Lissa]

Sorry, the Inquisition STILL does count, and always will... especially in the minds of the descendants of Native Americans, who are still probably the most marginalized group still in American society, or maybe tied with African Americans. There are just as many extremists in Christianity as there are nut job Muslims, or any other religion really. If you think otherwise, you are short-sighted, plain and simple. I don't agree with shoju on much but indeed, the connect here isn't the religion itself, but the dominating culture of each nation. I just wish people would get over these silly divisions and realize who their true oppressors are. Working class Muslims need to realize they have the same class interests as Christian working class people do, and vice versa.

Anyways, glad I'm an atheist. Because personally, I think ALL organized religion sucks and is just an excuse for people to not have to think at all. Science and education for the win. I let reason and rationality rule my world, not superstition and mythology based on the will of some invisible authoritarian sky wizard that doesn't exist.

Just a nit, but German Americans are the most marginalized culture in the US. No other culture is more ashamed of what has happened in their past then those of German descent living in America.

[FireIceTalon]

Sorry, the Inquisition STILL does count, and always will... especially in the minds of the descendants of Native Americans, who are still probably the most marginalized group still in American society, or maybe tied with African Americans. There are just as many extremists in Christianity as there are nut job Muslims, or any other religion really. If you think otherwise, you are short-sighted, plain and simple. I don't agree with shoju on much but indeed, the connect here isn't the religion itself, but the dominating culture of each nation. I just wish people would get over these silly divisions and realize who their true oppressors are. Working class Muslims need to realize they have the same class interests as Christian working class people do, and vice versa.

Anyways, glad I'm an atheist. Because personally, I think ALL organized religion sucks and is just an excuse for people to not have to think at all. Science and education for the win. I let reason and rationality rule my world, not superstition and mythology based on the will of some invisible authoritarian sky wizard that doesn't exist.

Just a nit, but German Americans are the most marginalized culture in the US. No other culture is more ashamed of what has happened in their past then those of German descent living in America.

No....Germans may be ashamed and sorrowful of their past more than other people (and this in itself would be something that is hard to quantify), but by no means does this make them the most marginalized demographic in America, not even close. Two-thirds of our prison system consists of minorities (blacks, followed by Latinos - or it may be reversed now, I cannot recall), and Native Americans are the economically poorest demographic overall. Not to mention it is mostly blacks, Latinos, and middle-eastern people who are racially profiled, and victims of hate crimes. Middle easterns and Latinos probably suffer the most from xenophobia.

[Jester]

Please tell me about those events. I do not consider a single retard, even a religious one, who bombs an abortion clinic, to be enough of a population slice to represent his religion.
Oh, and the Inquisition does not count any more. It's been a few years.

The inquisition is hardly the last piece of Christian-inspired psychosis. Explicitly Christian Anti-Jewish pogroms were common in Christian lands well into the 20th century, notably in Russia, where hundreds of thousands were killed.

Christians these days tend to be rich and well-armed, so actions that channel anti-Muslim violence tend to be conducted under the aegis of supposedly secular militaries. Nevertheless, Christian fundamentalism is widespread in the US armed forces. You don't have to look very far on the internet to find plenty of people, both inside and outside the military, who see the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan explicitly as Christian-vs-Muslim conflicts. Israel adds an entire other layer to this, with many Christian groups seeing the conflict as fulfilling scriptural prophecy. This is not official policy, of course, but it bubbles to the surface often enough.

When is the last time you saw peaceful protests like that from a group of Christians or for that matter ANY other religion except the "religion of peace"?

India has seen anti-Sikh riots among Hindus, notably during the 1980s, in which hundreds were killed. Hindu extremist violence, against Sikhs and Muslims has been substantial, including the destruction of the Babri Mosque by a rioting crowd of 150,000.

Muslims (Rohingya) are regularly persecuted in Burma, which is majority Buddhist. Anti-muslim riots are common, especially in the north on the border with Pakistan, particularly this year. Dozens if not hundreds of people have been killed.

And, of course, if I had to give purely Christian religious violence an iconic name, I think I might call it: Ireland.

Should I continue? There is plenty of non-Muslim religious violence in the world.

Stop pretending that this is perfectly normal and acceptible, because that is exactly what you are doing.

Could you point to the part where I said it was acceptable to kill people? I don't remember saying that. Doesn't sound like me. Sounds more like the argument you'd prefer to have, the one that fits your strawman.

-Jester

---

Just a nit, but German Americans are the most marginalized culture in the US. No other culture is more ashamed of what has happened in their past then those of German descent living in America.

There is a difference between shame and marginalization, no? Shame is internal, something a group does to itself. Marginalization is something other people do to a group. Germans might have the first, but surely not much of the second.

-Jester

[DeeBye]

Should I continue? There is plenty of non-Muslim religious violence in the world.

It wasn't that long ago that the KKK was being plenty violent.

[Jester]

Interestingly Islam was founded about 600 years after Christianity. The Inquisition was in the mid 1400's. So if religions follow a cycle, Islam is right around where Christianity was 600 years ago.

... and Christianity is where Judaism was 1000 years ago? Not sure that argument works.

-Jester

[Kevin]

Interestingly Islam was founded about 600 years after Christianity. The Inquisition was in the mid 1400's. So if religions follow a cycle, Islam is right around where Christianity was 600 years ago.

... and Christianity is where Judaism was 1000 years ago? Not sure that argument works.

-Jester

Honestly I don't know enough religious history (or even general history) to back that particular claim I made at all. But it's political season and I figured I'd join in with all the other people I see making unbacked claims.

[Lissa]

Just a nit, but German Americans are the most marginalized culture in the US. No other culture is more ashamed of what has happened in their past then those of German descent living in America.

There is a difference between shame and marginalization, no? Shame is internal, something a group does to itself. Marginalization is something other people do to a group. Germans might have the first, but surely not much of the second.

-Jester

In this case, it's both. There is a well known instance of anti-german rhetoric in the US, especially right after WWI. Ty Cobb was infamously caught sliding into second base against a player of German descent screaming "German! German!" with his spikes set to dig into the leg of the player and crowd at the game was cheering Cobb on. Over the last 100 years, German culture has been both suppressed and opressed within the US.

[Jester]

In this case, it's both. There is a well known instance of anti-german rhetoric in the US, especially right after WWI. Ty Cobb was infamously caught sliding into second base against a player of German descent screaming "German! German!" with his spikes set to dig into the leg of the player and crowd at the game was cheering Cobb on. Over the last 100 years, German culture has been both suppressed and opressed within the US.

Kitchener, Ontario used to be Berlin, Ontario. Then WWI happened.

However, my sense is that the post WWII culture was quite different from WWI. Has there been any serious anti-German sentiment since the immediate post-war period? Nobody is attacked or criticized for the schnitzel-and-lederhosen stuff, are they?

-Jester