Blizzard gain a flash of insight?

[Treesh]

I don't think it is so much that gaming has moved on but rather that they tried to add a few bits to move it into a genre that it is not. It is a dungeon crawl. IT IS NOT AN MMO. There should be no cries for, or attempts to provide, an "End Game". You should be able to progress through levels and equipment until you kill the main bad guy. YOU WIN!! The closest thing to end game should be making a variant or running another class, or even just doing gear runs to get better shinies just to show off. If Inferno existed at all, it should have been a natural progression in difficulty to challenge the best of the best,

THIS. Right here, pretty much sums up my take on D3. If I wanted to play an MMO, I'd still be playing one. This is supposed to be an ARPG or at worse just an action game.

[LavCat]

I wouldn't. For me the fun part of item hunting is (potentially) finding an item that allows you to do awesome things that you couldn't before. Like in D2 getting an item with c2c amp so you can crack phys immunes...

What is c2c amp?

[ViralSpiral]

Chance to cast Amplify Damage.

[LavCat]

Chance to cast Amplify Damage.

Thanks!

[Yricyn]

The only difference between choices in D2 and in D3 is that there were no takebacksies in D2. You can build an enormous variety of characters and skillsets in D3, from cookie cutters to weird variants and everything in between. If you want a "no takebacks" system like D2, you can play that yourself - just play it as a variant.

We've been given more choice, but people seem to be interpreting it as less. I'm not sure why.

-Jester

I'm completely on board with this, and you say it much more eloquently than I can.

The difference is, in Diablo and Diablo 2 you could "win" with sub optimal builds. In Diablo 3 you can farm Act4 hell, Act 1 inferno with sub optimal builds. Or you can cookie cutter yourself and use the AH or farm endlessly until you pass the gear checks to win. But you can't do a full clear single pass with a sub optimal build and still get to the end.

I don't hate Diablo 3. I still play nightly. But I recognize the difference. I haven't been able to move beyond A3 Inferno yet. I was able to beat all of D2 without ever dieing. I recognize its possible ... see Kripparian video. It kind of reminds me of the Occupy Wallstreet thing. Its possible to beat Inferno without ever dieing, if your a member of the 1%.

[Jaffa Tamarin]

The difference is, in Diablo and Diablo 2 you could "win" with sub optimal builds. In Diablo 3 you can farm Act4 hell, Act 1 inferno with sub optimal builds. Or you can cookie cutter yourself and use the AH or farm endlessly until you pass the gear checks to win. But you can't do a full clear single pass with a sub optimal build and still get to the end.

Tell yourself that you have "won" when you have finished hell difficulty, and you have a much greater variety of interesting builds available. Inferno is clearly designed not to be played in the same way as normal-nightmare-hell. The way I see it, the game is normal-nightmare-hell. Inferno is the end-game. I never bothered with the item-farming, level-grinding end-game of Diablo 2, and I don't see playing the inferno end-game as being a necessary part of the Diablo 3 experience. Certainly not with every character.

Blizzard even helpfully provides a "you have now beaten Diablo 3" (I think those are the exact words) game over screen after you finish with hell.

I will probably push one character through inferno using the GAH, and the rest of my characters will be one-pass full-clear no-trading and finish at the end of hell, just as I used to do in Diablo 2.

(Also, this is my first post here, so hello to everyone at the LL.)

[Ashock]

Funny how I started saying this 10 days into the game... http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/thread-13890.html

Notice the end of my initial post.

"I am as big a fan of the Diablo series as you can find, and I know that without big changes, this game will be in trouble soon.
2-3 months tops."


So many ppl got on my case from that and subsequent posts on this topic.

The game is dead, just as I predicted it will be.


Enjoy.

[Jester]

The game is dead, just as I predicted it will be.

You win a cookie!

-Jester

---

(Also, this is my first post here, so hello to everyone at the LL.)

Jaffa! Long time no see. :-)

-Jester

[RogueMage]

I have a hunch that Blizzard may have been sucked into the trendy pseudo "social" hype epitomized by the success of Facebook and eBay. The degenerate model they promote is of a hollow product that contains minimal creative content, while exploiting and manipulating the content contributed by its users. Following this design philosophy, Blizzard has created a generic farming system that generates randomized content recycled by its users within a closed system managed by Blizzard as well.

Where I think this really hurts the game is with two of its most unbalanced aspects: items and elite mob skills. In both cases, attribute modifiers are randomly combined to produce unpredictable results. With items, the game generates enormous piles of worthless trash, a small percentage of useful gear, and a miniscule number of grossly overpowered prizes. The existence of extremely rare uber-items distorts both game balance expectations and AH market values.

Randomized combinations of elite mob skills wreak havoc on gameplay progression. The extreme, and in some cases impossible, difficulty spikes make the game both too hard and too easy, no matter what level you're at. What's worse is that out-of-control elite pack encounters often upstage the predictably scripted Act Boss showdowns that follow. This further trivializes the thin creative story content and produces a sense of anti-climax that emphasizes the randomly repetitive lowest common denominator of the game environment.

The cure for these maladies is for Blizzard to put some serious work into both item design and elite mob skill sets. Rather than unleash these things in obliviously random combinations, they should apply parametric controls that produce predominately interesting results, and eliminate the worst game-imbalancing abuses. In addition, Blizzard should hand-craft the most significant Legendary items and boss pack skill combinations, and reserve them for meaningful occasions. Players don't appreciate utterly random lethal encounters and completely unpredictable loot. We want a sense of relentlessly escalating danger and ferocity, culminating with correspondingly impressive rewards.

[LochnarITB]

The game is dead, just as I predicted it will be.

Oh no! Well, guess I better go uninstall it then.

[Concillian]

(Also, this is my first post here, so hello to everyone at the LL.)

Hi Jaffa.

Though we know it's only your first post at this incarnation of the LL. I at least remember you from a previous incarnation.

[Ashock]

The game is dead, just as I predicted it will be.

You win a cookie!

-Jester

Don't need a cookie. But if you need one, I have them out on the RMAH for $1.99. For $2.99, I will include 3 useless rares with every chocolate chip one.

[ViralSpiral]

I recall Jaffa's name too, if not precisely why. I know it from long, long ago. Possibly even D1, I am thinking.

[Occhidiangela]

Jaffa, IIRC, used to post at Realms Beyond quite a bit.

I've not been to RB in a while, so not sure if that's still a place Jaffa 'hangs out' or not.

Players don't appreciate utterly random lethal encounters and completely unpredictable loot. We want a sense of relentlessly escalating danger and ferocity, culminating with correspondingly impressive rewards.

And a cigarette afterwards.

[Jaffa Tamarin]

Jaffa, IIRC, used to post at Realms Beyond quite a bit.

You are correct

[ViralSpiral]

Oh, I had the variant archive on my lappy before it 'sploded. Well, melted really. But I may be recognising his name from the credits of a variant or two. Or might be he posted on the thread where I submitted the Dragon Sorceress variant for D2. Can't properly recall. Welcome back, either way. (Formerly DStheHermit here. I was no one special and you probably don't remember.)

[LochnarITB]

The AH also should not exist. People say it just makes it easier for folks to trade but it does more than that. It trivializes much of the game, at least Normal to Hell. Feeling tested? Buy something off the AH. Don't worry about l2p, if you can play the AH game for items and gold you are good to go.

After today, I am even more convinced of this. I have been playing my wizard straight through, no farming, no AH. I am up to Diablo Hell diff. All along, I've been thinking I must really suck because I was actually feeling challenged all through the game. I kept noticing people talking of their damage and resists, etc. and that my numbers weren't close, but I was making do and progressing. Then I kind of brick walled against Hell Diablo. I decided my damage out was just not good enough so I gave in and went back to farm Hell IV some. Today, during maybe my third run through, a big 2 hander rare mace dropped. It boosted my damage at least 30-40% with that one piece. All of the sudden I was melting the packs. The only real problems were invulnerable minions and then it was just because I would get so annoyed trying to work around them that I would get sloppy and they would kill me before I took out their leader. I haven't tried Diablo yet with the new piece but I can see so much difference that I expect her to give daddy her yummies.

My point? Had I gone and bought a piece or three off the AH along the way, I would have taken the challenge away. I believe many folks are buying off the AH and losing the fun and challenge they could be having in the first three diffs. Then they hit Inferno, which Blizzards intention seems to have been making it just a hair short of impossible until god moded, and then they cry because it is too hard. If you've given up on the game, try experimenting. Start a new toon. Don't buy off the AH. Maybe even leave the twink gear in the stash. Play through figuring out how to beat down the baddies in your way while making do with what you have. You might just find there is a fun game there after all (as soon as they eliminate invulnerable minions ).

Anyway, that's this fat slob's rant for today. YMMV. Good gaming all.

[FireIceTalon]

I did some thinking about all of this today, and I've come to the decision that I think I will only attempt to beat Inferno on ONE char, and one char only. I mean, being put through the same content a 4th time and having to either farm for countless hours or use the RMAH just to get through the same content on the highest difficulty just seems ridiculous to me. The point of Diablo in the past was never really to "beat" the game, it was about finding the loot, making the sickest toon possible. But Blizz has made this a cash-cow system to reap profits by forcing people to use the RMAH to get through Inferno content (content that doesn't require skill anyways, only items matter), content we have been through 3 times before. Gonna beat it with my Wiz, just to say I did it, and call it quits I think....only way I see myself sticking around really is if PvP turns out really good. But other than that, meh....I can't imagine myself going through the same grindfest and torture with 4 more chars.

[Mavfin]

My point? Had I gone and bought a piece or three off the AH along the way, I would have taken the challenge away. I believe many folks are buying off the AH and losing the fun and challenge they could be having in the first three diffs. Then they hit Inferno, which Blizzards intention seems to have been making it just a hair short of impossible until god moded, and then they cry because it is too hard. If you've given up on the game, try experimenting. Start a new toon. Don't buy off the AH. Maybe even leave the twink gear in the stash. Play through figuring out how to beat down the baddies in your way while making do with what you have. You might just find there is a fun game there after all (as soon as they eliminate invulnerable minions ).

Anyway, that's this fat slob's rant for today. YMMV. Good gaming all.

As I said in another thread, *if* I use the AH, it's only to get a bargain item that's 'good enough' to get me where I need to go and don't want to farm further for. And, I haven't done so this go-round, and I'm having a lot more fun, because I am getting upgrades.

I agree that many are buying great stuff, and not understanding that doing so precludes getting upgrades out in the world as easily. That's the fault of the player, not the AH.

[LochnarITB]

I agree that many are buying great stuff, and not understanding that doing so precludes getting upgrades out in the world as easily. That's the fault of the player, not the AH.

Yes and no. To say it is the fault of the player is to imply that they know better and do it anyway. I feel that there is a large segment of the players that could not see that. With all the talk going in and once it was released, I can easily see the mindset that the AH is central to the game and that it is meant to be the main upgrade path. I believe that they unknowingly cheated themselves out of fun without seeing that it was there to be had. In real life, there would have been time to show people a better way to continue on. With the game, it is a bell that can't be un-rung, the damage has been done.

So, weighing in on AH yes or no, I come down on no, it shouldn't have been there. I believe there would have been less criticism of the game's "lack of end game" (although I'm sure many would have found some other reason to whine) and more folks would have the hope for longevity of the game that I do.

Again, this old gamer's opinion. YMMV.