Hotfix 6/28 -- Item drop rate changes

[Archon_Wing]

Good lord, people. Blizzard has nerfed Act II and III by 40% and made high level rares rain down on players like Christmas, and you're still complaining. Other than DH's, who need and I expect will get a lot of love in the 1.1 patch, start playing the game already. Blizzard has already said exactly what they want Inferno to be about -- killing champ and boss packs and occationally a boss after you get enough Nef stacks. The game is approaching this. Stop with the relentless complaining already. Start talking about how you're building your characters to succeed rather than bitching about how you can't do what lots of other people are able to do.

Regarding specifically this thread, you now get 10 billion rares per run, only a few of which are really good. Welcome to the world of the random number generator. If there weren't lousy items, you wouldn't know you got a great item. And, if you get a lot of lousy items, churn them into salvage material and try for a good item that way.

And if you bought a whole bunch of top of the line items off the AH, don't be surprised if it takes a while for you to get something that beats the items you bought. I thought the whole complaint was that it was impossible to progress without going onto the AH. Well, now, you get so many rares, you have no excuses anymore even if you don't use the AH. And if you do use the AH, there will be a *lot* more top level items becoming available for cheaper now. So, stop with the relentless complaining already.

Thanks for missing the point! The complaint was not towards nerfing inferno or changing drops. It's nice to have more drops. That part was easily appreciated. The thing is that the changes Blizzard has been making are huge and honestly, pretty reckless. Having drops be utterly crap and having drops be too easy to get are both sides of the same bad coin. The effects to the economy and players is huge, but especially for those that are struggling-- hell, I'm not that affected, but it would sure suck if those changes hit me earlier.

We are hoping for something a bit more fine tuned and patient, not wide spreading changes (such as the massive IAS nerf and repair costs) that clearly weren't tested that doesn't give people time to find proper balance. So , Blizzard knowing best? There's no reason to think so.

Also, about planning characters to succeed? What's the point? The moment anyone finds anything that works, they remove it from the game anyways. :p If anything, the more solid plan would just be to collect more gold and well... wait and see until the storm subsides and they calm down a bit.

[FireIceTalon]

^^This.

Blizz knowing what is best is laughable. Clearly, they do not - their whole design philosophy of "monsters powerful, players weak" is a perfect indication that they indeed have no clue at all. MJ's argument is very misleading, because firstly, even with the nerfs, only a VERY TINY percentage of the population has even unlocked Inferno, and second, an even smaller percentage has beat it. Nerfing Inferno means nothing as long as shitty mechanics like engrage timers, exorbitant repair costs, and constantly nerfing skills, IAS, and quests whenever players find something that works for them and is legitimate. You say we need to stop complaining and play the game, but its more like Blizz needs to stop being a bunch of Nazi's and let the players play the game instead of nerfing us every other day because we are doing what we are supposed to do: Progress. If Blizz doesn't want us to progress, why even make the game in the first place? If you think them forcing THEIR idea what what is fun onto the players is going to go without objection, you are sorely mistaken.

[FoxBat]

I don't really agree with most of the thread. Inferno did just get two times easier, and will be beaten in half the time. It's gear dependent, double the gear, double your power. My concern is why they decided to drop the tough act and suddenly cut Inferno in half. Did they have that little confidence in their original choices? Are they just slapping together whatever they can as quick as possible to keep players? In the latter case, they don't have time to fix "real" problems carefully, they just have to throw out what they can. But what kind of data are they collecting that has them abandoning their original design so quickly?

[ViralSpiral]

Have you -seen- their forum?

[FoxBat]

Have you -seen- their forum?

Did you see their D2 forum?

Admittedly I don't spend too much time at either place, for obvious reasons.

[ViralSpiral]

Because it's like pouring acid on your eyeballs and setting fire to your brain? Would that have aught to do with it?

[Mavfin]

Because it's like pouring acid on your eyeballs and setting fire to your brain? Would that have aught to do with it?

D2 forum looked like that, and WoW has looked like that for months, even in the quarters they didn't lose any subs, so you can't really draw any inference from their forums.

[ErickTheRed]

People keep saying that this fix doubles the drop rate and I don't see it. Is there something in the patch notes that makes high level helms twice as likely to give me str, vit, all resist, and a socket? Getting the right collection of mods is what matters!

The way I see it is that the effect of the change is that it's still very rare to see the mods I want, but now when they item does drop it's likely to be a higher level so more likely to be an upgrade. I don't see how you go from this to claiming the drop rate is doubled.

[Yricyn]

As my mudda used ta tell me... 2 times nuttin is still nuttin boy.

The problem is multiplicative in nature (4% of drops are ilvl 63 ) x (.05% of ilvl 63 drops are good) = a small number close to 0. 0 x anything is still 0.

[Kevin]

People keep saying that this fix doubles the drop rate and I don't see it. Is there something in the patch notes that makes high level helms twice as likely to give me str, vit, all resist, and a socket? Getting the right collection of mods is what matters!

The way I see it is that the effect of the change is that it's still very rare to see the mods I want, but now when they item does drop it's likely to be a higher level so more likely to be an upgrade. I don't see how you go from this to claiming the drop rate is doubled.

This fix doubles the drop rate. It went from 13 to 26 (or whatever).

You are not concerned about the drop rate. You are concerned about the useful item drop rate. You are correct that this has not doubled. It has increased but as Yricyn explained, it hasn't doubled.

So people can say the drop rate doubled because it did. It is correct use of language. The problem is that isn't the measure that people care about. Blizzard applied a fix that has a tertiary affect on what the problem for people is. There are other ways to fix the useful item drop rate, some more drastic than others. Upping the drop rate does still have an effect on the useful item drop rate though, and it's an easy thing to change and can be hotfixed, so it was likely the quickest way to apply a tweak to core problem.

Also from Blizzards point of view since the Auction House is part of the equation, a tweak like this increases availability of usable items more in general as more of these items will show up on the AH now. This of course does not help all types of players and there will be players who get an good item for another class that they don't put on the AH because they either don't realize, don't want to use the AH, or just really want crafting mats, or something else. So that growth rate is another multiplicative factor where growth slows.

Since I've never known Blizzard to do good theorycrafting in any of their games I don't expect them too have with these changes either. They are simply making a change that has a positive indicator in the direction of change they want and seeing what happens. It's the approach they have taken pretty much every game they have made.

[Archon_Wing]

It's true, but there was one exception we can hold them too. A 25% price decrease to missile turrets was one of the best balance changes ever. Significant, subtle, and it works.

Or nerfing the infamous zergling rush by a few seconds, instead of removing it like they would do now. :p It allows for a powerful tactic to remain less overpowered but still extremely effective. That's good balancing.

[Concillian]

Well it also has the effect of providing more materials for crafting. Decreasing one of the barriers to crafting. Still need tome of secrets, but it does make the BS at inferno level somewhat usable, especially for skill builds that want specific *base* item types.

So I guess it does have a beneficial side-effect.

It also decreases the barrier to entry for people who are just moving into being 60 and can get away with the less than perfect affix combos.
The perfect affix combos will always be expensive, but it does push some of the less than perfect stuff into being more available.

[Mavfin]

It also decreases the barrier to entry for people who are just moving into being 60 and can get away with the less than perfect affix combos.
The perfect affix combos will always be expensive, but it does push some of the less than perfect stuff into being more available.

Which decreases the perceived 'need' for the AH, at least for the more patient people. Nothing helps for those who have to have it 'now'.

Also, it helps you feel more progression if you get more small upgrades as you head toward that 'great' item.

[ViralSpiral]

I'd estimate that when one factors in people who either don't know or don't care what's useful for anyone but themselves, don't AH at all, and that what this change did was increase the item level of dropped items rather than the total amount of items dropping, the effect of the change on the actual useful item drop rate was probably something like +2%, which means in about a week or so, their forum is going to be full of 500 people claiming this change never happened or didn't work because they're not suddenly flooded in RMAHable items (and not knowing that if they were and everyone else was too, that there'd suddenly be a lot less buyers.)

As far as the change doing anything Lurkers or RMAH-addicts want it to do, the change isn't going to do much. The ultimate end result is that it will take slightly less time farming A1 before being able to progress to other acts, and somewhat increase the possibility of farming viable equipment from A3/4 Hell first. Given how much easier A3 mini-bosses are than A4 ones in general, that's somewhat good news. (Plus, so far as NVing champ packs, I'm pretty sure Hulking Phasebeasts are the worst threat from A3 for most ranged builds, versus Morlus and CAs from A4.)

[MongoJerry]

The dps difference between ilvl 63 items and ilvl 60 items is pretty dramatic. Even blue ilvl 63 items are pretty amazing to someone transitioning into Act 1 inferno. Also, the values on the ilvl 63 items can be so high that you don't have to have a "perfect" item with every prefix and suffix being useful to be useful in early inferno. Maybe you do need more perfect rolls for Act III/IV Inferno. But after this change, you get a greater chance of finding items that can spawn those high value prefixes and suffixes. Plus, if you didn't need more perfect rolls to be able to be effective in Act III/IV, we'd be complaining that the game was too easy, like D2.

So , Blizzard knowing best?

Blizz knowing what is best is laughable

Don't put words into my mouth that I didn't use. There's a difference between saying that the game needs some changes and making some positive suggestions for changes that you would like to see and griping incessantly about every aspect of a game that for some reason you keep playing and about the company that makes it. Blizzard said several things up front that they haven't deviated from. First, normal-hell was balanced and designed to be done pretty straight-forwardly. If you liked the ease of D2, well, D3 hell is more difficult than D2 but you can progress at a nice steady pace up to the end of hell. Done. The game is well balanced and satisfying up through the end of hell. However, Inferno is designed for those who said D2's difficulty was a complete and utter joke. It's designed to be hard, and guess what? We got our wish. It's hard. It is designed to be a grindy slogfest where you are expected to farm in Act III/IV hell for a while to be able to do well in Inferno Act I and then farm in Inferno Act I to be able to progress into Inferno Act II, etc. This was stated up front.

However, Blizzard also said up front that they didn't playtest Inferno as thoroughly as they did normal-hell. This was a frank and open admission. We had the phrase that everyone likes to quote where their playtesters got Inferno mobs to the health and damage outputs to where they were comfortable and then they "doubled it." Well, yeah, that was a mistake that they recently rectified.

They also didn't catch all of the possible treasure exploits and skill/gear combination exploits before release. Perhaps asking them to have caught beforehand all possible combinations that millions of players would later find is asking too much. However, they've done a lot in this area like nerfing Force Armor and knocking down the proc rates on certain skills that really had to be done. Also, their lack of foresight on how powerful stacked IAS would become not only as a dps mechanism but as a resource generator was regrettable. It was better that they fixed it early, though, than to keep stringing people along and then applying the necessary nerf later.

Finally, Blizzard said from the beginning that they wanted the best loot to drop as a result of killing elite packs and bosses. All of their efforts to increase drops off elite packs and bosses while nerfing magic find and drop rates off chests and breakables is related to this philosophy. I hope at some point they'll remove the treasure goblin spawn points that appear near set waypoints as well. Blizzard actually wants players to go out into the world and kill things in order to get the best treasure. Go figure.

However, I have to say that this change in drop rates concerns me as it seems rather out of the blue. It seems like Blizzard is caving in to the "let's make it easy like D2" crowd. I'm especially worried about their comments about the legendary items they are making that they claim will live up to their legendary name. If they end up being too legendary, then the game will shift away from people trying to get good rares to the "legendary or bust" mentality of D2. Plus, if Blizzard doesn't increase the game's difficulty to compensate for these items, the game will get to be so easy that it'll just be silly.

By the way, RedRadical, you've made several comments about being interested in PvP, when it comes out. My recommendation to you is to stop bothering with Inferno. Just farm hell with a lot of gold find gear and get a ton of gold together, because skills are going to get a massive overhaul in 1.1, and we don't know yet what stats will be important in the PvP game. I suspect that your PvE gear and your PvP gear will end up looking quite different.

[Archon_Wing]

So , Blizzard knowing best?

Blizz knowing what is best is laughable

Don't put words into my mouth that I didn't use.

I recommend you do the same, since quoting 5% of our combined posts and writing a long text wall that still doesn't address the other 95% isn't exactly very preferred either. And you still don't know what half of us are talking about.

My point was not to say you think Blizzard knows best. I wasn't even talking about you.My point is that I feel that I feel they have no idea what the hell they're doing, and these changes aren't very effective at addressing problems, and thus I shouldn't accept this kind of strategy.

There's a difference between saying that the game needs some changes and making some positive suggestions for changes that you would like to see and griping incessantly about every aspect of a game that for some reason you keep playing and about the company that makes it. Blizzard said several things up front that they haven't deviated from. First, normal-hell was balanced and designed to be done pretty straight-forwardly. If you liked the ease of D2, well, D3 hell is more difficult than D2 but you can progress at a nice steady pace up to the end of hell. Done. The game is well balanced and satisfying up through the end of hell. However, Inferno is designed for those who said D2's difficulty was a complete and utter joke. It's designed to be hard, and guess what? We got our wish. It's hard. It is designed to be a grindy slogfest where you are expected to farm in Act III/IV hell for a while to be able to do well in Inferno Act I and then farm in Inferno Act I to be able to progress into Inferno Act II, etc. This was stated up front.

I've stated before that this intention is just deeply flawed. Sure, they can say the game ends in hell, but who buys that in a loot based game where completeing hell only getes you subpar loot? Your only source of comparison and peer trading will be based on prices in inferno. The multiplayer, online nature of the game makes the whole thing a dream and a delusion. Also, intention doesn't justify anything that brings up crappy design.

And even if I judge the game ending at hell, well that was underwhelming. With the lack of customization, this game cannot have the same replayability.

We've seen it in the last game. People care a ton about endgame. Drawing an arbitrary line doesn't help. It was done well in d2 with the addition of Uber Tristram-- for those seeking a greater challenge, but you didn't need to enter it to get 95% of the godliest loot in the game.

Furthermore, criticism is criticism, as long as you explain why and what was done wrong. Sure, I may be saying it in a meaner tone, but I really don't think anyone over there is going to be offended because some people on the internet said some mean things about them. So I think they can stand up for themselves.

However, Blizzard also said up front that they didn't playtest Inferno as thoroughly as they did normal-hell. This was a frank and open admission. We had the phrase that everyone likes to quote where their playtesters got Inferno mobs to the health and damage outputs to where they were comfortable and then they "doubled it." Well, yeah, that was a mistake that they recently rectified.

Sorry, you don't get credit for admitting you didn't do your job. In fact, that just makes it come across as silly in my part. However, trying to rectify the issue actually is a good thing on their part? Yes it is. See, I acknowledge them! It's why I haven't uninstalled yet.

They also didn't catch all of the possible treasure exploits and skill/gear combination exploits before release. Perhaps asking them to have caught beforehand all possible combinations that millions of players would later find is asking too much. However, they've done a lot in this area like nerfing Force Armor and knocking down the proc rates on certain skills that really had to be done. Also, their lack of foresight on how powerful stacked IAS would become not only as a dps mechanism but as a resource generator was regrettable. It was better that they fixed it early, though, than to keep stringing people along and then applying the necessary nerf later.

Finally, Blizzard said from the beginning that they wanted the best loot to drop as a result of killing elite packs and bosses. All of their efforts to increase drops off elite packs and bosses while nerfing magic find and drop rates off chests and breakables is related to this philosophy. I hope at some point they'll remove the treasure goblin spawn points that appear near set waypoints as well. Blizzard actually wants players to go out into the world and kill things in order to get the best treasure. Go figure.

Goblin spawn points is a issue that can be addressed. The IAS issue well, they could have just left it in and made inferno harder than it is now. It's these wide sweeping changes that just make the playing experience jarring. And sure, it's lame to not go out in the world, but honestly, I feel that people should be free to do whatever they consider fun, instead of judged as exploiting (aside, from actual cheating)

However, I have to say that this change in drop rates concerns me as it seems rather out of the blue. It seems like Blizzard is caving in to the "let's make it easy like D2" crowd. I'm especially worried about their comments about the legendary items they are making that they claim will live up to their legendary name. If they end up being too legendary, then the game will shift away from people trying to get good rares to the "legendary or bust" mentality of D2. Plus, if Blizzard doesn't increase the game's difficulty to compensate for these items, the game will get to be so easy that it'll just be silly.

I'm sure that crowd contains a lot of skilled players, but let's not forget the game was "easy" because a large number of people hacked and cheated in d2, or benefited from others that cheated and helped them. And now, it's backfiring on them, I guess.

[Zombie]

This hotfix is pretty cool. I went through quite a few bosses with no rare drops, with NV on, and was disappointed. So more item drops is great, imo. As for RMAH effects... well I don't use it so I've nothing say on it.