Basic Math - The Failure of Diablo Melee

[Athenau]

And healing potions do? The Templar's heals do?

And? No one's claiming that those are terribly useful in the endgame either.

Which the Demon Hunter flat out doesn't get. The ONLY class without any buffs available to them.

The DH doesn't have passive mitigation but they have plenty of snares and escapes. Most melee would absolutely love the ability to spec as offensively as a DH, while I don't see DH's clamoring to be able to sacrifice damage for defense.

As for low DPS, melee can survive with 14k DPS in Inferno.

For various definitions of "survive".

At just shy of 20k DPS, I can't do enough damage to mobs at the entrance to Act II before they can kill me.

This is not a problem unique to DH's. The difference between melee and ranged in this case, is that you can stack enough damage to get over that hump (of killing things before they reach you). Melee can't, unless they're hugely overgeared.

Offense is the only defense a ranged class has, especially a Demon Hunter, because we flat out can't tank the damage.

Melee isn't tanking anytihng in inferno unless a. you have superlative gear, or b. you have a bar full of defensive skills. This game is about killing things and taking their loot, so I question the utility of b.

And offense is not the only defense ranged classes have. All classes have access to snares, escapes, CC, as well as some form of (active or passive) mitigation. Melee might be able stack more defense by burning more skill slots, but combined with the necessity to gear more defensively that totally gimps your damage output, which makes it a pointless exercise.

Monks and Barbarians can.

See above.

[Elric of Grans]

The DH doesn't have passive mitigation but they have plenty of snares and escapes. Most melee would absolutely love the ability to spec as offensively as a DH, while I don't see DH's clamoring to be able to sacrifice damage for defense.

I cannot comment on Inferno, but I have found the snares utterly useless in Hell difficulty, and most of the escapes are no good even in Normal. Smoke Screen is the only one that functions, and outside one particular build it is also barely useful.

Demon Hunters do not spec for defence because they literally cannot. No defensive passives, only one functional defensive active skill. In Hell difficulty, I have 20K Life (way too little, but that is another story), 50% damage reduction, 30% resistances, 17% block and 26% dodge just to survive against mobs that cannot be kited, because I completely lack meaningful defensive skills. Without defence-heavy equipment, I would be dead every two seconds to a random Spiderling.

Again, I am not trying to pretend the Demon Hunter is not one of the strongest classes in the game, but that is 100% Smoke Screen, which has been nerfed so hard that it is arguably worse than the equivalent skills for other classes (eg Mirror Image). Beyond a single skill, which every Demon Hunter has to select and spam the crap out of because of bad design, the class is awful.

[FireIceTalon]

Caltrops and Shadow Power are excellent on normal, and work on nightmare. On Hell or Inferno, they are utterly useless, and even the infamous SS/Prep combo is pretty much null on Inferno - and neither caltrops nor shadow power compares to Wizard's "Slow Time" anyway. Sentry is a joke compared to the Wizard's "Hydra", and Vault and Teleport are about equal. Nerfing SS was probably the worst thing Blizz could have done for the DH class - all it did was make a weak class even weaker. If Blizz wants to balance the chars, the solution is to buff up the chars which are suffering, not nerf the ones they "think" are over powered.

The DH reallllly needs some damage reduction skills (as far as I know it is the only class to not have any such skill, passive or active), and their resource system needs tuning - in particular Discipline, which regenerates faaar too slowly IMO, especially for how costly the useless defensive skills required to use it are. Even Hatred regenerates slower than Fury or Spirit it seems, when using generators.

While the Rogue on D1 and Amazon on D2 were sort of "glass cannon" classes, they were perfectly viable, and their fragility was only to a point that it made the class requiring great skill to play correctly, but they weren't intrinsically flawed like DH is - to the point where the class is almost unplayable on the highest difficulty. A good Rogue on D1 could still easily die in Hell/Hell, yet dominate it if geared properly as well. I don't see DH really being able to do this on Inferno unless huge changes are made.

[BellaStrega]

Snares are pretty rubbish in Hell and Inferno. The mobs you really need to slow down are barely affected and often move faster than you by default. That's aside from how often bosses and champion packs spawn with modifiers like jailor, waller, frozen, teleport, and vortex, which can negate attempts at maneuvering.

[ViralSpiral]

From what I've read, I'll bet anything that Discipline regeneration is the key issue - survival in Inferno seems to rely primarily on defence, and from what I've read of the classes, Discipline regenerates slower than every other resource in the game. If the thing most necessary to survival is the rarest resource, then survival would probably be difficult. Either 1) Discipline regenerates too slowly/Discipline costs are too high, 2) DHs need to gear even more defence than other classes, 3) some kind of skill combo which makes them much more viable simply hasn't been discovered yet or 4) Blizzard really didn't test this class in Inferno all that much and thinks they're much better/more balanced than is actually the case.

[Archon_Wing]

Hmmph. I'll tell you which resource regenerates even slower than that. Monk spirit doesn't regenerate at all naturally! They actually have to risk themselves to build up spirit, and when you come across something like shielding arcane w/e BS, you are totally screwed.

[Roland]

From what I've read, I'll bet anything that Discipline regeneration is the key issue - survival in Inferno seems to rely primarily on defence, and from what I've read of the classes, Discipline regenerates slower than every other resource in the game. If the thing most necessary to survival is the rarest resource, then survival would probably be difficult. Either 1) Discipline regenerates too slowly/Discipline costs are too high, 2) DHs need to gear even more defence than other classes, 3) some kind of skill combo which makes them much more viable simply hasn't been discovered yet or 4) Blizzard really didn't test this class in Inferno all that much and thinks they're much better/more balanced than is actually the case.

Discipline regeneration is fine. It's supposed to be a scarce resource, and anyway you can get several pieces with +Discipline (Cloaks and Quivers at least, and I believe some bows / crossbows / hand crossbows). However, you hit the nail on the head (sorta) with #2. The basic problem with DHs is that they have zero passive nor active skills that buff their base defensive stats. That means they hit the ceiling on armor and resistances far sooner than any other class (Witch Doctors at least have Jungle Fortitude, for a flat 20% damage reduction). This makes them all the more reliant upon their defensive skills, which for the most part have been nerfed into the ground due to exploitative combinations. No matter how high you get your defenses through gear you're almost guaranteed to get one- or two-shotted in Inferno, often times before you could even use your defensive skills.

With the exponential increase in difficulty it becomes more and more challenging to gear up for it. Already I can tell that 4k armor and 200+ resistances aren't going to cut it in Act II (and I'm a fair ways from even hitting that goal), and there's only so much further I can take my 41k life pool. I don't see how it's even possible to become anything but a one-shot kill in Act III - and, perhaps, even Act II.

Hmmph. I'll tell you which resource regenerates even slower than that. Monk spirit doesn't regenerate at all naturally! They actually have to risk themselves to build up spirit, and when you come across something like shielding arcane w/e BS, you are totally screwed.

No you're not. You just have to kite until their shields wear off - like everybody else. At least you get boosted armor and resistances, meaning you can take a few hits, as well as invulnerability yourself (and multiple movement-based skills). Even I can take half a second of Arcane Sentry (finally) with my Demon Hunter - in the end of Act I. I'm willing to bet Act II and beyond is another story, but regardless if a DH can do it a Monk or Barb can do it better, and easier.

[Bolty]

This thread is devolving into "my class is underpowered and everyone else is overpowered." And it's all based on anecdotal evidence without hard math/evidence.

Please keep in mind that the perception of class strength is so heavily influenced by gear that it's extremely difficult to actually measure/compare classes directly. You would need to set up lab-style experiments at exactly equal levels of gear weighted towards desirable stats for each class, which is almost impossible to do, especially since item levels are currently not displayed to the end user.

There are a few generally acknowledged truths that affect these discussions:

1) For melee to survive in Inferno, they have to gear and skill heavily on the defensive side. For the sake of argument, why don't we assume that the game is balanced towards this setup? To assume otherwise would mean that Blizzard barely even tested their own game. Melee fans complain that they have to take mostly defensive abilities just to be able to operate; honestly, if they didn't have to, the system would be broken.

2) Demon Hunters don't have powerful defensive skills that Wizards have. This should be compensated by extra damage; whether or not this is the case, I can't comment because I'm ignorant of the mechanics.

3) Barbarians and Monks have a key issue that Demon Hunters don't - because they have to engage the mobs at point-blank range, they obviously need those defensive skills and defensive gear, but this leads to a situation I've described in the past: either the melee character is strong enough to "tank" mobs and look completely overpowered in the process, or they get splatted quickly and the ranged classes look totally unfair. This really skews the viewpoint, and I see it represented in many anecdotes here. I've seen my share of champion packs that are simply impossible for me to defeat that a ranged character can take out at roughly equal gear levels, and vice versa.

To a Demon Hunter, they see a Monk or a Barbarian jump into a group of mobs and survive and think "that's ridiculous." To a Monk or Barbarian, they see the Demon Hunter kite a mob pack that is simply unengageable to them without splatting and think "that's ridiculous."

Gear changes everything. My Barbarian couldn't take on any champion/rare packs at all when she first entered Inferno Act 1. She literally couldn't kill a single member of any boss pack at all. She can now solo Inferno Act 1 with ease (keyword: solo; when in groups, the ramped-up damage that mobs do changes her ability to tank things). Nothing changed, except the gear. My skill level didn't change, I just got better gear.

[Roland]

I'm going to come back to this later when I have time, but I just want state flat-out I do not think there are ANY overpowered classes in the game (overpowered monsters are a different story). I think Demon Hunters are the weakest class in some key areas that no other class has *when factoring in equal gear*, and that is all. I'd like to get into the specifics about it, rather than argue endlessly with people who think I'm praising their class as the be-all end-all.

This thread is devolving into "my class is underpowered and everyone else is overpowered." And it's all based on anecdotal evidence without hard math/evidence.

Please keep in mind that the perception of class strength is so heavily influenced by gear that it's extremely difficult to actually measure/compare classes directly. You would need to set up lab-style experiments at exactly equal levels of gear weighted towards desirable stats for each class, which is almost impossible to do, especially since item levels are currently not displayed to the end user.

There are a few generally acknowledged truths that affect these discussions:

1) For melee to survive in Inferno, they have to gear and skill heavily on the defensive side. For the sake of argument, why don't we assume that the game is balanced towards this setup? To assume otherwise would mean that Blizzard barely even tested their own game. Melee fans complain that they have to take mostly defensive abilities just to be able to operate; honestly, if they didn't have to, the system would be broken.

2) Demon Hunters don't have powerful defensive skills that Wizards have. This should be compensated by extra damage; whether or not this is the case, I can't comment because I'm ignorant of the mechanics.

3) Barbarians and Monks have a key issue that Demon Hunters don't - because they have to engage the mobs at point-blank range, they obviously need those defensive skills and defensive gear, but this leads to a situation I've described in the past: either the melee character is strong enough to "tank" mobs and look completely overpowered in the process, or they get splatted quickly and the ranged classes look totally unfair. This really skews the viewpoint, and I see it represented in many anecdotes here. I've seen my share of champion packs that are simply impossible for me to defeat that a ranged character can take out at roughly equal gear levels, and vice versa.

To a Demon Hunter, they see a Monk or a Barbarian jump into a group of mobs and survive and think "that's ridiculous." To a Monk or Barbarian, they see the Demon Hunter kite a mob pack that is simply unengageable to them without splatting and think "that's ridiculous."

Gear changes everything. My Barbarian couldn't take on any champion/rare packs at all when she first entered Inferno Act 1. She literally couldn't kill a single member of any boss pack at all. She can now solo Inferno Act 1 with ease (keyword: solo; when in groups, the ramped-up damage that mobs do changes her ability to tank things). Nothing changed, except the gear. My skill level didn't change, I just got better gear.

[RiotInferno]

I'm in A2/Inferno, and have started using Shadow Power( Gloom ) at the end of A1, and I can tell you, it has made quite a difference. The Damage Reduction from that has gotten me out of quite a few sticky wickets.

So, while DHs don't have a lot of defensive skills, we do have a couple, and I think it just seems that everyone still has the blinders on from the SS nerf, and aren't trying out enough different combinations.

Granted, I get killed all the time in A2, so It's back to A1 for me, until I get better gear

[smegged]

sticky wickets

Cricket reference. WIN.

[Trevan]

This thread is devolving into "my class is underpowered and everyone else is overpowered." And it's all based on anecdotal evidence without hard math/evidence.

My personal opinion on this and why we have the whole "dh/wiz is overpowered" cries on the official boards is simply because when you jump into inferno undergeared, it's easier for a ranged damage class based on kiting to survive the world of "don't get hit". Sure, some people have the time/patience/reaction skills to play that game flawlessly, but not everyone does.

Once people actually start getting properly geared, I think we'll see a shift in class balance thoughts.

I mean hell, a barbarian is the first to clear act 2 inferno HC. That's gotta mean something.

[Quark]

There are a few generally acknowledged truths that affect these discussions:

1) For melee to survive in Inferno, they have to gear and skill heavily on the defensive side. For the sake of argument, why don't we assume that the game is balanced towards this setup? To assume otherwise would mean that Blizzard barely even tested their own game. Melee fans complain that they have to take mostly defensive abilities just to be able to operate; honestly, if they didn't have to, the system would be broken.

Quick note: there was a big hubbub yesterday about a Barb posting a 2H guide on reddit - cleared Inferno with it.

Source

[BellaStrega]

Hey now, I wasn't arguing that anyone was underpowered or overpowered, just that monks aren't god mode.

I've grouped with every class in act I inferno so far, and I wouldn't say anyone is particularly overpowered. Everyone has problems, but some have worse problems than others. I don't know specifically what shifts in Act II, as I stopped trying in there when two or three wasp hits killed me.

[kandrathe]

... either the melee character is strong enough to "tank" mobs and look completely overpowered in the process, or they get splatted quickly...

This is my experience... I either wade through everything, thinking "I am a GOD!!!". Or, I wade in and quickly find myself eating dirt and think, "Wow. I totally suck." And, then spend some time trying reviewing logs to figure out how I died. I don't assume it's Blizzard's fault that I died. More than likely, I'm under geared, and/or using the wrong tactics or skills. The fun in a game comes in that sweet spot between adequately challenging and impossible. I tend to enjoy the challenge being closer to nearly impossible.

[Archon_Wing]

No you're not. You just have to kite until their shields wear off - like everybody else. At least you get boosted armor and resistances, meaning you can take a few hits, as well as invulnerability yourself (and multiple movement-based skills). Even I can take half a second of Arcane Sentry (finally) with my Demon Hunter - in the end of Act I. I'm willing to bet Act II and beyond is another story, but regardless if a DH can do it a Monk or Barb can do it better, and easier.

Act II is, however, where all the complaints come from. Act 1 is not always a walk in the park. Some mobs are just way too fast for you to kite and if they have anything that can trap you with arcane, it's pretty much gg and all the teleportation skills require a target.

Yes, I know that gives me a few more hits, but a lot of bad things can happen during cooldowns. It's just incredibly hard to actually hurt the enemy. All that defense stack to merely survive a few seconds more sacrifices thousands upon thousands of dps. Oh yes, I can kite for a bit and then... the game is like "Fuck you, here's out of time debuff". It's not just about survival. At least the game has the decency to just off you ranged characters quickly rather than trolling me by almost killing dead monsters and killing me anyways. :p

It's really easy to say these things in theory but since playing the game leads to suboptimal situations, and Monks usually only have a brief timing window when their combat ability is at full capacity in which pretty much any mistimed ability means that you are dead. Which about summarizes inferno for any class, really. It's like me saying "well, as a DH, you just have to not get hit!". It's simply not going to happen.

But that's not my point. All those fancy invincibility spells cost spirit, and if you're losing a fight, you're not building up spirit. If you're running away, you're not building up spirit. And you can't use them, and thus you are worthless.

However, I understand the game's just not been out long enough, and I'm certainly not going to tell other people how to play classes I haven't played to inferno yet. So yea, the grass is always greener on the other side.

[Elric of Grans]

I think the Witch Doctor is underpowered

That aside, I do not see the classes as underpowered, rather the skill/rune balance being out of whack. Well, that and the drop lists are extremely screwy. Once they are fixed, I doubt we will see half as many complaints.

[Kylearan]

Hi,

You can also farm goblins.

They did this non-stop for FOUR DAYS, and didn't die of boredom?

Quote from the video: "The grind-fest is really part of the game." Well, to each his own, but I'm glad I find my fun elsewhere in the game. Looking forward to the hardcore tourney...

-Kylearan

[MongoJerry]

Or, I wade in and quickly find myself eating dirt and think, "Wow. I totally suck." And, then spend some time trying reviewing logs to figure out how I died.

Wait, there's a combat log? Where?

[kandrathe]

Or, I wade in and quickly find myself eating dirt and think, "Wow. I totally suck." And, then spend some time trying reviewing logs to figure out how I died.

Wait, there's a combat log? Where?

Yeah, that would be nice. But, no, currently it's my own mental log. Sorry, I have sort of a Temple Grandin type visual memory. Not at her level, but still handy. I guess it's a bit awkward that I refer to myself as a piece of machinery.