Post 60-- There's No Joy in Victory

[Archon_Wing]

So I recently hit 60 and decided to journey around Inferno Act 1, and realized something depressing with the level cap.

There's literally nothing to gain from some of these things. Completing a quest earns you a pittance of gold, and those fancy massacre bonuses don't do anything anymore. I felt that was a really nice touch earlier in the game to encourage fast paced gameplay. Perhaps doing them in inferno should net another possible reward? Worse yet, if a monster gets killed, you literally gain nothing from defeating him except what he drops, and he can drop no item.

I understand that the Valor thing greatly boosts the quality of drops, but the gratification in the game has gone to feast and famine and that doesn't seem right for a game focused on fast action. I understand that Diablo's always about loot, but at least in D2 I always felt like something was happening, I was slowly moving towards an unattainable goal, but victories in Diablo 3 feel almost Pyrrhic. I spend 15 minutes killing this tough boss and blowing through and risking my life to finish the quest. And they decide to give me 560 gold and level 57 req items that nobody in their right mind would consider wearing?

Remember how in D2, you'd run down to the Den of Evil regardless of difficulty because that extra skill point was precious and make you a little stronger than you already are? Or the small feeling of getting an extra 20 health or a socket quest. Those were small tokens that rarely affected your overall characters. But there were always worth doing. It always felt nice to know there would be a small light at the end of the tunnel, even though monsters would still always drop garbage. There was always a reason to play every difficulty. Granted it wasn't perfect, and most of us were inclined to run as fast as possible out of Act 3, but still. You'd get a fancy new title for completing each difficulty and having your first first character crowned with the title of Guardian. Beating hell hardcore in d2 for the first time was something memorable. Beating a difficulty in D3 pretty much grants you a "A winner is you" screen and some achievement that nobody cares about because they flood you with them every 5 minutes. Who cares about achievements when half of them are basically "You have a pulse" awards?

I just can't be bothered to complete quests that won't even pay for the potions I'm drinking. I can hunt down elites anywhere. I'm more encouraged to AH stuff, and join a friend's game to skip quests I've done three times already.

Sure, there's always bragging rights for beating unbeatable bosses. But this isn't 1989 anymore.

Don't get me wrong. The Valor thing is a brilliant idea and I enjoy the improved drop rate. But something is amiss here.

[Elric of Grans]

A lot of people have stated exactly what you have. While Blizzard was right that grinding levels is not fun, people do appreciate knowing that everything they do adds to progression. OK, Skills/Runes cap at 60: that is something that cannot be helped under the current system. Not an issue. Some kind of post-60 rewards would be nice, however. What exactly, I cannot say.

Quests are another common complaint. Blizzard have taken many steps forward in terms of narrative, but taken away from the hack and slash flow of the previous gamers. In addition, as you noted, the quests lack rewards that motivate the player. It is 100% narrative-driven. For a conventional RPG, this is ideal; for a hack-and-slash... it could be a little more visceral and cha-ching.

[ViralSpiral]

Goodness knows that for as much as people hated A3, everyone loved their Izual points and Forge runes. No one did Nihlathak, everyone rescued Anya. (I think some SC people actually skipped the 5 stat points and 20 life from A3. I actually liked A3 with almost every build with ANY AoE whatsoever, but I know it was hideously unpopular in general.)

[Ashock]

So I recently hit 60 and decided to journey around Inferno Act 1, and realized something depressing with the level cap.

There's literally nothing to gain from some of these things. Completing a quest earns you a pittance of gold, and those fancy massacre bonuses don't do anything anymore. I felt that was a really nice touch earlier in the game to encourage fast paced gameplay. Perhaps doing them in inferno should net another possible reward? Worse yet, if a monster gets killed, you literally gain nothing from defeating him except what he drops, and he can drop no item.

I understand that the Valor thing greatly boosts the quality of drops, but the gratification in the game has gone to feast and famine and that doesn't seem right for a game focused on fast action. I understand that Diablo's always about loot, but at least in D2 I always felt like something was happening, I was slowly moving towards an unattainable goal, but victories in Diablo 3 feel almost Pyrrhic. I spend 15 minutes killing this tough boss and blowing through and risking my life to finish the quest. And they decide to give me 560 gold and level 57 req items that nobody in their right mind would consider wearing?

Remember how in D2, you'd run down to the Den of Evil regardless of difficulty because that extra skill point was precious and make you a little stronger than you already are? Or the small feeling of getting an extra 20 health or a socket quest. Those were small tokens that rarely affected your overall characters. But there were always worth doing. It always felt nice to know there would be a small light at the end of the tunnel, even though monsters would still always drop garbage. There was always a reason to play every difficulty. Granted it wasn't perfect, and most of us were inclined to run as fast as possible out of Act 3, but still. You'd get a fancy new title for completing each difficulty and having your first first character crowned with the title of Guardian. Beating hell hardcore in d2 for the first time was something memorable. Beating a difficulty in D3 pretty much grants you a "A winner is you" screen and some achievement that nobody cares about because they flood you with them every 5 minutes. Who cares about achievements when half of them are basically "You have a pulse" awards?

I just can't be bothered to complete quests that won't even pay for the potions I'm drinking. I can hunt down elites anywhere. I'm more encouraged to AH stuff, and join a friend's game to skip quests I've done three times already.

Sure, there's always bragging rights for beating unbeatable bosses. But this isn't 1989 anymore.

Don't get me wrong. The Valor thing is a brilliant idea and I enjoy the improved drop rate. But something is amiss here.

Moving the level cap is one of the more important tweeks that Blizz has to implement in order for 80% of the population not to leave after 2 months.

At the very least, make it to lvl 70, and if they insist, make the leveling past 60 painfulyl slow, like past lvl 86 in pre-LOD D2.

Unfortunately, that would screw up their plan of ppl being dependant on the AH to move up in Inferno, so I would not count on that before the x-pack.

[kandrathe]

Goodness knows that for as much as people hated A3, everyone loved their Izual points and Forge runes. No one did Nihlathak, everyone rescued Anya. (I think some SC people actually skipped the 5 stat points and 20 life from A3. I actually liked A3 with almost every build with ANY AoE whatsoever, but I know it was hideously unpopular in general.)

That's just because there are still many characters wandering lost in the Flayer Dungeon unable to find the way out.

[MongoJerry]

The WoW solution was to make quests experience rewards turn into extra gold rewards. The trouble with doing something like that in D3 is that there currently aren't enough gold sinks in the game, yet, so inflation is already starting to take root. The other issue is that the game allows one to repeat quests as many times as one wants, so if the rewards are too big, then people will keep redoing the quests over and over.

One way to make them significant is to make them a requirement to pass onto further content in Inferno only. That is, make it so that in Inferno, you really can't skip content to pass on to the higher levels -- and make it so that even in softcore, you can't resurrect during a "set piece" boss battle and you can't get credit if you die during the encounter. Thus, the reward for successfully completing the quest would be that you could move on to the next piece of content.

[Elric of Grans]

I am constantly flat-broke because of the artisans, but I acknowledge this will only be an issue for my Demon Hunter. Once I get motivated to use the other classes more, they will likely have huge pools of gold with nothing to use it on. The up-front cost on these guys is definitely too much, but the lack of a continued investment in them is the final economic break. If you could invest in the Blacksmith to improve him further (eg investing cash to make him roll the higher-end of certain modifiers, investing cash to PICK one of the modifiers, etc) and make him less cruddy in general and I could see gold being very precious. At least, in my world; other players may do things differently.

[DeeBye]

The WoW solution was to make quests experience rewards turn into extra gold rewards. The trouble with doing something like that in D3 is that there currently aren't enough gold sinks in the game, yet, so inflation is already starting to take root.

The AH is the gold sink for most of the players and it's a mighty big one. The problem is that 85% of that gold goes right into the AH barons' pockets.

[ViralSpiral]

So why not just make Inferno special? Give it some one-time, non-repeatable quests that give rewards worth having? Special runes, L60 equipment with pre-determined stats, or even the closest thing to a class-specific rare, like Anya did, perhaps a pile of crafting materials? Things that will have meaning to people who can no longer gain levels.

[MongoJerry]

The AH is the gold sink for most of the players and it's a mighty big one. The problem is that 85% of that gold goes right into the AH barons' pockets.

That's not a gold sink. That's a gold transfer, except for the 15% cut that the AH takes, which is a gold sink. But that 15% cut isn't enough to stem the tide of inflation.

Gold sinks currently in the game include crafting, training craftsmen, stash slots, vendors, repairs, the Staff of Herding, and the 15% auction house cut. But the craftsmen training, stash slots, and Staff of Herding are one-time purchases. Once you max them out, there's no need to spend any more money on them. Crafting should be the game's major gold sink, but right now it's cheaper to buy things on the AH than to craft them yourself. That's why I think there should be a few very good crafting recipies that create bind-on-account items in order to create a market for crafting materials and a place to sink gold. As stated previously, my suggestion is that these items would be only class specific items. The other slots could still be filled directly off the auction house.

[Roland]

As stated previously, my suggestion is that these items would be only class specific items. The other slots could still be filled directly off the auction house.

Wishful thinking. It will never happen so long as Blizzard keeps their RMAH model. Besides, we all knew inflation was going to be a problem. They haven't designed any checks and balances against it. Unless you have an almost completely player-driven economy (like EVE Online) it's extremely difficult to create a working economy, especially given the pinata model of D3. It just doesn't work.

Frankly, I think there are bigger issues than inflation, especially since (as Chesspiece notes) you can get solid gear either by farming or crafting - provided, of course, you put enough time into it and get some decent luck.

Even farming Act I Inferno as slowly as I do I can make roughly 100k - 150k an hour, if things go smoothly (or more like 50k - 75k if they don't). Most of the drops are junk that get salvaged for crafting materials, mostly because I can't be arsed to list something semi-decent that I know won't sell even at 10k. Today, however, I found a huge upgrade for my gloves, and a potential upgrade (or, if not, at least a sidegrade) for one of my rings - all in the same game. Almost everything else was worthless, but 2 upgrade items in a single half-hour play session is damn good, IMHO. Getting close to 70k gold didn't hurt, either.

[Concillian]

Gold sinks currently in the game include crafting, training craftsmen, stash slots, vendors, repairs, the Staff of Herding, and the 15% auction house cut. But the craftsmen training, stash slots, and Staff of Herding are one-time purchases. Once you max them out, there's no need to spend any more money on them. Crafting should be the game's major gold sink, but right now it's cheaper to buy things on the AH than to craft them yourself. That's why I think there should be a few very good crafting recipies that are create bind-on-account item in order to create a market for crafting materials and a place to sink gold. As stated previously, my suggestion is that these items would be only class specific items. The other slots could still be filled directly off the auction house.

I think picking modifiers for increased cost is a better option...

For example... craft a completely random item: cost = x
Craft an item where you pick one modifier = 2x
Craft an item where you pick two modifiers = 8x
Craft an item where you pick three modifiers = 32x

Something along those lines... I'm thinking that you can use a maximum of three degrees of freedom. You can choose to max out the affix range or choose an additional modifier with your 2nd and 3rd degree of freedom.

So if crafting boots for max price, you could choose resist all + armor + run speed
or
you could choose resist all with a number guaranteed to be in the maximum affix range for the item level (50-65? I don't really know) + run speed OR armor.

Something along those lines... of course only available as an option for the completely random items, and not available on any set or legendary recipes. I think 2x / 8x / 32x is probably about in the range you want it to be, given the crafting prices of the fully random items decrease some. You can potentially increase other materials, but that has the potential of decreasing the gold sink aspect. I actually think you want to significantly decrease the need for other materials in the base recipes with the current materials costs ending up at the place where you remove 2 or 3 degrees of freedom so that the slavage mats and books don't end up being a severely limiting factor to pulling gold out of the economy.

This would both create a gold sink and a source of items with appropriate affix allocation, giving drops some kind of baseline cost to work from for items on the AH. If any particular affix combination becomes popular, and prices of that combo spike, then items end up created for that particular affix allocation, which brings the prices back down to around 1x-3x the 3 degrees of freedom removed crafting cost.

[MongoJerry]

Wishful thinking. It will never happen so long as Blizzard keeps their RMAH model.

Somehow I knew someone was going to say that. You don't understand. It *creates* a market for crafting materials, so you can sell stacks of crafting materials and gold on the RMAH just as well as you can sell actual items. Nothing about the RMAH prevents this.

[Roland]

Wishful thinking. It will never happen so long as Blizzard keeps their RMAH model.

Somehow I knew someone was going to say that. You don't understand. It *creates* a market for crafting materials, so you can sell stacks of crafting materials and gold on the RMAH just as well as you can sell actual items. Nothing about the RMAH prevents this.

And in what way are crafting materials even remotely as costly as items? They're not, quite simply. Before they (essentially permanently) took commodities off the AH you could buy Tomes of Secrets for ~140 gold a pop. Other Inferno level crafting materials weren't much worse. So for a pittance of gold you can churn out some of the best gear in the game... and do nothing with it but use it? No, Blizzard wants their cut. They're not going to alienate their biggest source of revenue (top-end items) just to appease a weak economy. Do they want a complete lack of economy? Absolutely not. That doesn't mean they want to neuter their own money making. They're a business, and they're looking to profit. It's a reinvention of the free-to-play idea, only instead of charging you directly for items they take a cut of what the players are getting.

It's an interesting concept Mongo, but for one I don't think it has any place in a Diablo game (this isn't an MMO), and for another I don't think you'll ever see it in D3. There's so many reasons against it, and hardly any for it. So, as I said - wishful thinking (for some). Seriously, if you want to play a game with a REAL economy that has 100% player involvement go play EVE Online. Diablo doesn't have it, and probably won't ever.

[ViralSpiral]

The greatest thing in the world would be if everyone refused to buy anything from the RMAH until Blizz simply shut it down. I know that won't happen, but it's a grand and glorious thought. I guess the six million or so they'll make just in sales won't be enough (assuming they're making as little as $3 profit per sale, which is probably way undercutting it.) All I can say is that I hope this additional revenue means they're going to support D3 at least as long as they did D2 (10 years or so) although most of the post-1.10 changes were comparatively minor, graded against 1.08-1.10.

[MongoJerry]

And in what way are crafting materials even remotely as costly as items? They're not, quite simply. Before they (essentially permanently) took commodities off the AH you could buy Tomes of Secrets for ~140 gold a pop. Other Inferno level crafting materials weren't much worse. So for a pittance of gold you can churn out some of the best gear in the game... and do nothing with it but use it? No, Blizzard wants their cut. They're not going to alienate their biggest source of revenue (top-end items) just to appease a weak economy. Do they want a complete lack of economy? Absolutely not. That doesn't mean they want to neuter their own money making. They're a business, and they're looking to profit. It's a reinvention of the free-to-play idea, only instead of charging you directly for items they take a cut of what the players are getting.

It's an interesting concept Mongo, but for one I don't think it has any place in a Diablo game (this isn't an MMO), and for another I don't think you'll ever see it in D3. There's so many reasons against it, and hardly any for it. So, as I said - wishful thinking (for some). Seriously, if you want to play a game with a REAL economy that has 100% player involvement go play EVE Online. Diablo doesn't have it, and probably won't ever.

I have yet to hear you give a cogent argument against it. The crafting items were cheap because there wasn't any demand for them. If there were recipies that had the possibility of turning out the best items in the game for a couple specific slots, but those items were bind-on account and had a lot of randomness, so you would need to craft them a lot of times before you got something very good, then there would be a huge demand for such materials. High demand = higher prices. It creates a market that wasn't there before and provides a gold sink to prevent inflation.

[Roland]

I have yet to hear you give a cogent argument against it.

I have yet to hear you make a cogent argument for it, at least from Blizzard's perspective (player perspective is subjective, and thus not particularly relevant). Agree to disagree.

[FoxBat]

Crafting should be the game's major gold sink, but right now it's cheaper to buy things on the AH than to craft them yourself.

If mats are worth *more* than the items they produce, then mats are in one sense working very well. People are buying them for reasons other than the actual expected return value for using them. The worst case scenario economically would be that mats are slightly cheaper than the items they produce, as this is the bare minimum amount of gold sinking they can do. (Any lower and people would start buying mats instead of AH items, pushing back towards equilibrum.) This could be for any number of reasons, whether the cost of new players leveling up the smith, or just the number of people getting lost in gambler's fallacies, either way mats > items is a good sign. Imagine if the items produced were actually worthwhile, then the mat value could be even higher yet!

[MongoJerry]

I have yet to hear you make a cogent argument for it, at least from Blizzard's perspective (player perspective is subjective, and thus not particularly relevant). Agree to disagree.

OK, from a purely cynical not understanding that trading has been a part of Diablo for a decade and a half and that the auction house makes a bad situation much better for players standpoint...

The suggestion I made creates a market for stacks of crafting materials that people will buy repeatedly from the real money auction house. It also creates a significant market for selling gold on the real money auction house. (At the current rate of inflation, gold will become as valueless as D2 gold very soon). Therefore, lots of money for Blizzard all around.

So, even from a purely cynical point of view, it's a good idea. Now, from a player's perspective, it makes all that gold and crafting material valuable and it makes your blacksmith mean something to the development of your character's gear even in the end game. I think that's pretty cool.

And, again, we're only talking about a few key slots on a character. The other slots can be filled with one-time purchases of items as you see fit.

[smegged]

The biggest problem that I see is that the only way to advance, personalise and uniquify your character is through items. There are no skill points, no attributes to assign, nothing whatsoever to make your character an individual in any way. All there is is a level 60 barbarian with an axe of awesomeness and a level 60 barbarian with an axe of crapness. And sooner, rather than later, all barbarians will have an axe of awesomeness because there is nothing to take items out of the economy. Well, nothing to take GOOD items out of the economy.

And here we have the fundamental problem with the Diablo 3 economy. There is no "Bind on Equip" or "Account Bound" items that are worth anything. Equipping that axe of awesomeness doesn't prevent you from selling it on the auction-house when you replace it in a week's time. This also means that drops *have* to be terrible (seriously, the first kill of an act boss should yield more than 3 crappy blues) or the economy really gets out of control.

The only way for Blizzard to really fix this is to make all iLvl 60 items BoE and improve the drops/crafting in nightmare difficulty and above. Because seriously, sooner, rather than later, there will be so many axes of awesomeness floating around that their effective value will drop to nothing. From there, the only thing Blizzard will be able to do is to "reset the ladder", retune hell and inferno and reinflate item stats on new drops. The game will be an endless game of item farming to upgrade your character to stay at the same level of power.