Out of Time?

[Elric of Grans]

This has seriously got to be the single most stupid thing I have ever heard of in a game.

I was fighting an Invulnerable Minions/Desecrator/Nightmare pack (it seems Desecrator pits can trigger Nightmare *groans*). I was actually making headway and had the Rare almost dead. Suddenly, a skull and crossbones appear on my character and the enemies. I cursored over the tool-tip to find out what it meant and it told me I had been fighting too long and was now out of time.

Suddely, I realised my Life was draining rapidly. Yes, when you are Out of Time, you seem to have a constant health drain effect. This quickly killed me. I respawned, but was still out of time(!) so died against almost immediately. I quit the game while dead, as there was no other option.

I am prepared to forgive a lot in this game, and before this I had been having a fantastic session. Plenty of Elites, but they had only been challenging, not stupidly over-the-top. Even this Invulnerable mob was clearly doable --- never once close to death, and was slowly whittling away at them. Why the heck would Blizzard think it is a smart idea to punish a player because they were struggling to kill an Invulnerable creature? Can there possibly be any justification for a feature that essentially gives you a Game Over screen (since respawning does not remove it) purely because you were too slow?

[ErickTheRed]

Enrage timers or some other mechanism with the same effect were absolutely essential in WoW, otherwise the correct strategy was to be ultra defensive. It's considerably less clear why they are needed in Diablo III. A limit on the ability for a group to rez and rejoin the fight comes to mind.

I've run into them playing in open groups. I've also ran into it while I was playing on while a friend was afk which was rather annoying. Once I was able to heal through it and kill the pack anyway which was amusing. On inferno act bosses have "soft" enrage timers. The Butcher's room starts to fill with fire. I've carried a single dps that died early through that a few times. It's was pretty exciting actually.

I also found it slightly telling that they thought they were ready for Act II afterwards.

[Mavfin]

It's part of the added difficulty for Inferno. You can't just stack defense, do a pittance of DPS, and make it through. You still have to balance. The WoW equiv would be to bring 5 healers to a 10-man w/o enrage timers. Hell doesn't have this, afaik, unless your example was in Hell, Elric?

[ViralSpiral]

Yeah, I haven't read of anyone happy with that feature. Knowing in D2 I tended to run across at least once a session a boss pack that took 20-45 minutes to kill and that certain (admittedly, variant) builds have needed one to two HOURS to kill Diablo or Baal (and a couple that needed an hour or so in NIGHTMARE), I can't guess who thought this would be a good idea. Please tell me D3 doesn't have immunities yet? (Aside from the moronic Invulnerable Minions.)

[Mavfin]

Yeah, I haven't read of anyone happy with that feature. Knowing in D2 I tended to run across at least once a session a boss pack that took 20-45 minutes to kill and that certain (admittedly, variant) builds have needed one to two HOURS to kill Diablo or Baal (and a couple that needed an hour or so in NIGHTMARE), I can't guess who thought this would be a good idea. Please tell me D3 doesn't have immunities yet? (Aside from the moronic Invulnerable Minions.)

Inferno was Blizzard's response to 3-5 years of "TOO EASY" from Blizzard fans. Yes, it has enrage timers so people can't cheese it, because as we know, if there's a way to cheese something, people will do it. Yes, it requires more defensive skills. Yes, it's not just farmable in the way Hell and below are. All those things are intended. No, I doubt that variants will be able to do the Act bosses.

They're going to take the top off the spike damage, looks like, and a few other fixes, perhaps to things like immune minions, but, I don't think they're going to fix Inferno for variants.

[ViralSpiral]

Well, no, I don't expect Inferno to be happy fun land for variants, but having a "Your DPS must be this tall to ride" sign on all the boss packs seems...petty? Like they're mainly concerned with people building with too much defence, even though that's exactly what that difficulty level forces you to do? Then again, I suppose in a game whose antagonists are chiefly from Hell, "damned if you and damned if you don't" is at least thematically appropriate.

[Roland]

In all my time playing I've never seen an Enrage timer. I'm not convinced they belong in this game, but then I'm not convinced they don't. They do not belong in Hell, that is for sure. Inferno? Well, it's already such a curb stomp to you they might as well piss on you while you're down. I have no problem forcing a balance between offense and defense. I think, with a few notable exceptions, they've already done this - without Enrage timers. We'll see what changes they have in store (although, to be honest, anything short of removing the Invulnerable Minions ability is a waste - it was a stupid idea that never should have made it into release; Shielding is challenging but not insurmountable, but Invulnerable Minions is virtually impossible - at least as a ranged class).

[Elric of Grans]

This happened to me in Hell difficulty (I am not up to Inferno yet). It also did not happen because I played defensively, but because of the Invunerable Minions attribute, which Blizzard have acknowledge needs to be changed/removed. Even then, I cannot see the justification. I never played WoW, so I cannot understand how it works there, and will not make a fool of myself by attempting to comment. In the case of things like The Butcher, I have no issue with it. As time goes on, the Environment changes? Predictable, makes sense, and quickly schools the player to change their approach. This, however, makes no sense. I just die and cannot respawn.

ViralSpiral, immunities do not exist in the game and Blizzard have commented that it was in their design brief that they should never rear their head again. They have commented that it was a poor design choice in Diablo II and has no place in Diablo III.

EDIT:
Roland, my Demon Hunter has previously taken out two Invunerable Minions groups, and would have taken out this third one if not for the timer on the fight. It is time-consuming, but most certainly doable. Attacks that pierce (eg Elemental Arrow) are the key to it. That said, I still agree 100% that it should be scrapped ASAP. Shielding is challenging, but fun; Invunerable Minions just feels counter-intuitive in a game that is all about killing everything you see (including pillars, barrels, and slightly enraged dire gazebos).

[Mavfin]

Yeah, they shouldn't be in Hell, imo. Just Inferno.

[Chesspiece_face]

This happened to me in Hell difficulty (I am not up to Inferno yet). It also did not happen because I played defensively, but because of the Invunerable Minions attribute, which Blizzard have acknowledge needs to be changed/removed.

Side-Topic of Immune Minions; I've been trying to think of a way they can alter this ability so that it keeps the flavor they were looking for while making it not so absolutely BS.

One idea I've come up with is altering it so it is a mix between the present Immune Minions and the other skill Health Link. You still keep the fact that the Minions themselves can't be killed but you alter it so that some portion of damage that is done to the Minions is reflected back onto the Boss itself. This will always make it more efficient to just damage the boss but even if there is something like 5/10% damage transfer you will still be progressing on the encounter.

[Mavfin]

This happened to me in Hell difficulty (I am not up to Inferno yet). It also did not happen because I played defensively, but because of the Invunerable Minions attribute, which Blizzard have acknowledge needs to be changed/removed.

Side-Topic of Immune Minions; I've been trying to think of a way they can alter this ability so that it keeps the flavor they were looking for while making it not so absolutely BS.

One idea I've come up with is altering it so it is a mix between the present Immune Minions and the other skill Health Link. You still keep the fact that the Minions themselves can't be killed but you alter it so that some portion of damage that is done to the Minions is reflected back onto the Boss itself. This will always make it more efficient to just damage the boss but even if there is something like 5/10% damage transfer you will still be progressing on the encounter.

Or, just make the minions transparent to ranged attacks, or even to all attacks. You still have to deal with their attacks, but you can damage the boss a bit more easily.

[ViralSpiral]

Hrrm. Might be remove the ability and replace it with one called Hive - the boss/champ pack shares their health pool with a 20% boost, and then all drop at the same time.

For example: Assume a boss with 1M hp and four minions with 250K hp each. 2M total - the 20% bonus would take them to 2.4M, a shared life total for the entire pack. When 2.4M is dealt between the entire pack, they all collapse at the same time. So there's a health boost, and you still get the effect of everything dying at once, but the barrier isn't plain insurmountable. And it's not just a straight 20% health boost either because you're still physically contending with five mobs all at once, instead of picking them off one at a time.

[MongoJerry]

Hrrm. Might be remove the ability and replace it with one called Hive - the boss/champ pack shares their health pool with a 20% boost, and then all drop at the same time.

For example: Assume a boss with 1M hp and four minions with 250K hp each. 2M total - the 20% bonus would take them to 2.4M, a shared life total for the entire pack. When 2.4M is dealt between the entire pack, they all collapse at the same time. So there's a health boost, and you still get the effect of everything dying at once, but the barrier isn't plain insurmountable. And it's not just a straight 20% health boost either because you're still physically contending with five mobs all at once, instead of picking them off one at a time.

Well, that's sort of what health link is for champions.

I think the idea of invulnerable minions was fun. But the fact that the minions often get in the way of attacks wasn't fun. Blizzard will probably just remove the modifier altogether, but if they just made attacks pass through the minions, then it'd be OK.

[Mavfin]

Well, that's sort of what health link is for champions.

I think the idea of invulnerable minions was fun. But the fact that the minions often get in the way of attacks wasn't fun. Blizzard will probably just remove the modifier altogether, but if they just made attacks pass through the minions, then it'd be OK.

I agree on both points. We have health-link, and really, health-link isn't that hard, because all your AoE contributes.

On the minions, yes, just make them something you have to defend against, and make attacks ignore them, so you can hit the boss.

[ErickTheRed]

Sometimes I can make great use of my Seismic Slam knockback and push the minions out of the way so my buddy can hit the boss.

I'm happy I got to see them in the current state, but won't be too sad to seem them go.

[Archon_Wing]

It's a terrible mechanic that already forces you do either put out more dps or die in a game that already takes every excuse to kill you and restricts the styles of gameplay that are possible. It's not like we have crushing blow, so they might as well put a sign that says "Go to the Auction House or get really lucky with drops"

Invincible minions are also awful in crowded passages, and give melee characters a terrible time. I think making them ethereal would be fair.

[Elric of Grans]

I tried taking a look at the Auction House to see if I could improve my DPS. The cost of, well, anything was so absurdly inflated that I quickly decided there was no point even thinking about it. I am almost tempted to put a Cracked Sash up for 1,000,000,000 to see what happens

[Archon_Wing]

How much DPS are you doing? It shouldn't cost more than 10k to buy a decent hell weapon; I can also hook you up if needed.

[Quark]

I think the idea of invulnerable minions was fun. But the fact that the minions often get in the way of attacks wasn't fun. Blizzard will probably just remove the modifier altogether, but if they just made attacks pass through the minions, then it'd be OK.

No, it wouldn't. You're saying this from the perspective of a ranged character. Invulnerable sucks for us, but right now we pick up a piercing attack (weaker version of the recommended change) and it's a matter the same as some other fights - kite, hit the boss slowly, and kill. This is assuming the other mods don't kill us, which is flat out likely when you have 3 other mods.

Now think of it from a melee character perspective. You have at least 5 monsters pounding on you. None of which can be killed to reduce incoming damage. None of which can be killed to spawn health globes. None of which can be abused for +life on hit or +life on kill items.

[Kevin]

Side-Topic of Immune Minions;

A small health reflect or ethereal would work I think.

Of course since most of my play time has been on a witch doctor and most of my builds have had a couple of either ethereal or arcing damage spells I haven't had the same issues. Darts is about the only witch doctor skill that the minions will block. You can throw spiders and skulls over them. Haunt will go through them what you have targeted. Most of the spirit barrage styles get blocked but phantasm will travel through and do it's AoE where you cast it, grasp doesn't care, poison cloud doesn't care. Generally my biggest issue was that they were immune to slow effects and wouldn't stick on pets because the pets couldn't hurt them. So it was more challenging to kite around while I was lobbing things at the boss, who was also harder to target.

I mention this because it highlights one of the good things about the game I think. Different abilities play out differently on different classes (OK so I intentionally used different as many times as i could there). I like that I at times have to think in radically altered ways on my demon hunter than I would on my witch doctor. Or that even different skills on the same class can have a large impact on play style.