A few ideas of how to save D3

[FireIceTalon]

I'd also like to point out how just 2 days ago, people were jumping on me saying I was wrong about this flaw, that I'm full of shit, yada yada yada just a day or two ago, now many are seeing I was right after all. Told ya so. And I didnt even need to be in Inferno to know this, cause the problem starts in Hell difficulty - Inferno just confirms the issue. I could probably work around the issue somewhat by simply farming the early quests of Act 1, build up a huge wealth of gold and hit up the AH, but is it worth the time and frustration? I have my doubts, to say the least. Not to mention, I don't think ANY kind of gear will save you from from the incredible frustration that would be beating Inferno. I really hope I'm wrong, but I do not like what I have heard so far from numerous people in later acts, and my own experience in Act 1 thus far. One of my friends from Germany is on Act 4 Inferno, sitting on millions in gold, char does something like 50-60k dps, and even he is saying he is amazed at how insanely retarded Inferno has been. A few of our other friends, who are great players on D1 and D2, have abandoned D3 because the end game simply is NOT fun. The end game is supposed to be the most fun part in an RPG (in my opinion anyway), and here, it is completely backwards. Normal is easy, Nightmare is very challenging but completely doable, Hell is where cracks in the surface start to show, and Inferno - why bother?

[Chesspiece_face]

I'd also like to point out how just 2 days ago, people were jumping on me saying I was wrong about this flaw, that I'm full of shit, yada yada yada just a day or two ago, now many are seeing I was right after all. Told ya so. And I didnt even need to be in Inferno to know this, cause the problem starts in Hell difficulty - Inferno just confirms the issue. I could probably work around the issue by simply farming the early quests of Act 1, build up a huge wealth of gold and hit up the AH, but is it worth the time and frustration? I have my doubts, to say the least.

And here I am, back again to tell you that you are full of shit. Because this is not what you were arguing at all. You are just taking issues inherant in Inferno difficulty and shoehorning it on to your original statements which have nothing to do with this to prove your point. It's a straw man argument.

Because you can't understand even the stuff you yourself write I'll break it down for you:

1. You say it is impossible to play in Hell difficulty without using the auction house.

People refute that.

2. You say that the only way you can compete in Hell difficulty is with items gained in Hell difficulty.

People refute that.

3. You bring up arbitrary stat limits that an individual must gain to be effective in Hell.

People both refute that as well as inform you that the stat limits you pulled out of your ass are entirely obtainable with gear gained in Normal and Nightmare.

4. After all this has been refuted and you are told if you don't have gear good enough for Hell difficulty that you should go back and farm you complain that you would not get good Xp from doing that.

To which people reply that you may just need to make that hard choice if your gear really isn't good enough.

5. Then you pull more random numbers out of your ass about how rare the items you would need are and that it's not worth your time.

Your original line or argument has absolutely nothing to do with Inferno difficulty and the issues that arise with it. And there are multiple examples of people playing through Hell right now (in Hardcore no less) that prove your points are falacious. There are many valid reasons to be dissatisfied with the item system in D3 right now. You don't need to make up BS to argue your dissatisfaction

[FireIceTalon]

I'd also like to point out how just 2 days ago, people were jumping on me saying I was wrong about this flaw, that I'm full of shit, yada yada yada just a day or two ago, now many are seeing I was right after all. Told ya so. And I didnt even need to be in Inferno to know this, cause the problem starts in Hell difficulty - Inferno just confirms the issue. I could probably work around the issue by simply farming the early quests of Act 1, build up a huge wealth of gold and hit up the AH, but is it worth the time and frustration? I have my doubts, to say the least.

And here I am, back again to tell you that you are full of shit. Because this is not what you were arguing at all. You are just taking issues inherant in Inferno difficulty and shoehorning it on to your original statements which have nothing to do with this to prove your point. It's a straw man argument.

Because you can't understand even the stuff you yourself write I'll break it down for you:

1. You say it is impossible to play in Hell difficulty without using the auction house.

People refute that.

2. You say that the only way you can compete in Hell difficulty is with items gained in Hell difficulty.

People refute that.

3. You bring up arbitrary stat limits that an individual must gain to be effective in Hell.

People both refute that as well as inform you that the stat limits you pulled out of your ass are entirely obtainable with gear gained in Normal and Nightmare.

4. After all this has been refuted and you are told if you don't have gear good enough for Hell difficulty that you should go back and farm you complain that you would not get good Xp from doing that.

To which people reply that you may just need to make that hard choice if your gear really isn't good enough.

5. Then you pull more random numbers out of your ass about how rare the items you would need are and that it's not worth your time.

Your original line or argument has absolutely nothing to do with Inferno difficulty and the issues that arise with it. And there are multiple examples of people playing through Hell right now (in Hardcore no less) that prove your points are falacious. There are many valid reasons to be dissatisfied with the item system in D3 right now. You don't need to make up BS to argue your dissatisfaction

All your so-called "refutes" are pure anecdotal evidence (minority) that flies in the face of the EMPIRICAL evidence (majority experience). I had to use the AH to get through hell mode, and almost every other person I have come across, both forum and in game, did as well. Difficulty in relation to the loot system is BROKEN. You can try to pull any fallacy out of your ass that you like, and you will still be wrong at the end of the day. You have not disproved ANYTHING. It is YOU who is full of shit, not me. You have 0 clue as to what the fuck you are talking about. Why do I get the feeling you are one of those trolls that hasn't even got to hell mode (let alone Inferno) and tries to act like your an expert on the matter?

My ultimate point is that the end game is frustrating, tedious, and no fun at all. You have not disproved this, not even close. This thread, along with the million of other threads on this very topic on Diablo Inc and Blizz forums are indication that I am right. But according to your logic, it's just me. Yea, right.

You are wrong. Period. Fact. End of Story. Neeeeeeext.

[Taelas]

Dude, the mere existence of even anecdotal evidence proves you were wrong. It doesn't matter if it is anecdotal: what matters is that it is true.

You said "this isn't possible." People proved you wrong. Get over it.

Also, the idea that forum posters are a "majority" in any way is still laughable. The best you can come up with is "a majority of forum posters", which means absolutely nothing. (By the way, citing anecdotal evidence--i.e. what you have gone through, and what people you've met have gone through--while ragging down on others for doing that... sorry, but it makes me giggle.)

[Chesspiece_face]

All your so-called "refutes" are pure anecdotal evidence (minority) that flies in the face of the EMPIRICAL evidence (majority experience). I had to use the AH to get through hell mode, and almost every other person I have come across, both forum and in game, did as well. Difficulty in relation to the loot system is BROKEN. You can try to pull any fallacy out of your ass that you like, and you will still be wrong at the end of the day. You have not disproved ANYTHING. It is YOU who is full of shit, not me. You have 0 clue as to what the fuck you are talking about.

My ultimate point is that the end game is frustrating, tedious, and no fun at all. You have not disproved this, not even close. This thread, along with the million of other threads on this very topic on Diablo Inc and Blizz forums are indication that I am right. But according to your logic, it's just me. Yea, right.

You are wrong. Period. Fact. End of Story. Neeeeeeext.

Since you obviously don't understand what the term "Emperical Evidence" means I'll break this down.

You made discrete claims which are easily tested against reality. Many of those claims are listed above. Anecdotal evidence doesn't even figure into the equation here. All I need to do is find one instance that disproves your above claims and those claims are proven false. Thus for any of the claims you made prior to stand, you need to be asserting that the people that refuted you are essentially lying. Not to inadvertantly drag Frag, MJ, Swirly, or GG into this trash heap discussion, but anyone who has them on their friends list can take two seconds to look at their profiles and know what you stated is false.

Your ultimate point is that you are dissatisfied with the game. Ok. I can't argue that. I'm sorry. My ultimate point is that you don't have to make up BS to prove that point.

[FireIceTalon]

Dude, the mere existence of even anecdotal evidence proves you were wrong. It doesn't matter if it is anecdotal: what matters is that it is true.

You said "this isn't possible." People proved you wrong. Get over it.

Also, the idea that forum posters are a "majority" in any way is still laughable. The best you can come up with is "a majority of forum posters", which means absolutely nothing.

Ok, I will re-state my argument - for the MAJORITY of situations, using the AH will be a must come hell difficulty. Either way, my point still stands. The end game is a joke.

And the forum posters are the only ones that matter, because they are the hardcore fan base that generally knows more about the game and understands the mechanics of it better. Those who do not post on the forums are probably casual gamers who will buy any hot game that is out, play it for a bit, then move on to the next title that comes out. They likely have very little knowledge about the game mechanics to even a fraction of what most people, the hardcore gamers who REALLY study the game and play it long term, have.

So again, I am right. You are wrong. Get over it.

[Elric of Grans]

Just to throw in my two cents. I have played what most people would consider an unhealthy amount of Diablo III, and I have had it longer than any of you (even if I could not play it ). I am still in Nightmare difficulty. Those who are in Inferno are either rushing ahead and not taking their time to appreciate the game and do everything in it, which means they are missing an awful lot, or they are playing way too much and probably need to catch up on two weeks sleep/go to work before they get fired. Either way, give it time.

This is why I never played WoW: all you people care about it getting to the end-game ASAP and ignore 99% of the content as a result. People are playing Diablo III with an MMO Raid mentality, and seem to have missed two very important points: (1) this is not an MMO, and (2) is it not intended for MMO Raiding. If you want to play WoW, play WoW; if you want to play Diablo III, take a moment to work out what that means and then do so. The end is never as good as the journey, so you are shooting yourselves in the foot. Did you know you can have your Templar rescue himself? Try it: it is funny! Play the game, enjoy yourself; let Blizzard worry about the details. If we can forgive a wrist watch in Ben-Hur, we can let Blizzard tweak the game like they always do until they get it right.

[LochnarITB]

Sigh..

People have no patience anymore.

Ways to save D3? Can't do whatever difficulty without the AH? Blah, blah blah..

The game was released 12 DAYS AGO! Why expect to blow through the game immediately. We've waited a long time for it. Savor it like a fine wine instead of guzzling it like 2 Buck Chuck. Let Blizzard adjust parts of the game that really do prove themselves wrong. Spend some time trying to better your equipment without insisting it be optimal first pass. Work out new strategies with what is there. The doomsday sirens have not sounded yet so, as someone my age may have heard long ago, take a chill pill, dudes. Peace and love one another.

(Where is your tie dye peace sign flashing smiley emoticon, Bolty? All the truly high class joints have them!)

[FireIceTalon]

Sigh..

People have no patience anymore.

Ways to save D3? Can't do whatever difficulty without the AH? Blah, blah blah..

The game was released 12 DAYS AGO! Why expect to blow through the game immediately. We've waited a long time for it. Savor it like a fine wine instead of guzzling it like 2 Buck Chuck. Let Blizzard adjust parts of the game that really do prove themselves wrong. Spend some time trying to better your equipment without insisting it be optimal first pass. Work out new strategies with what is there. The doomsday sirens have not sounded yet so, as someone my age may have heard long ago, take a chill pill, dudes. Peace and love one another.

(Where is your tie dye peace sign flashing smiley emoticon, Bolty? All the truly high class joints have them!)

Well, in the case of Inferno mode, I don't think its a matter of wanting to blow through the game, I think the main concern is just being able to get through it at all, without it being incredibly stressful and unfun. As hard as hell mode was, one could get through it eventually if they made upgrades through the AH or were extremely lucky in getting good drops (but gl with that). With inferno, many are skeptical, for good reason, that even having top notch gear will smooth the experience some - it doesn't seem likely since many of the monster traits here completely deprive the player of all control, and the damage they do is pretty excessive - they could nerf monster dmg by 50% and the game would still have plenty of challenge, but would make playing it much more tolerable. Basically the game determines whether you get through or not - and this isn't how it should be. It is an artificial system that PUNISHES the player and really is no indication of a players skill, only an measure of how much pain and misery they can tolerate.

People can sit here and argue with me all they want - but being 2 shotted and not being able to do ANYTHING about it is NOT fun. Personally, I think they should just remove Inferno altogether and keep hell mode as the cap. Hell is certainly more than challenging enough, even to the point that some people will probably be like "fuck this", but getting good enough gear makes it playable. Inferno is just pointless.

I don't want them to make the game as easy as WoW where people just blow through the game with no effort, but as it is, it will drive many people away. There has to be a happy medium here. Anyway I guess Blizz is going to respond soon, since this is such a hot topic in the community right now. Let's see what happens....

Finally started playing one of my other chars, a Barbarian, level 10 now. Even on normal mode early on, he feels more fun and a bit less squishy than the DH. Finally found my first Legendary item also, some decent shoulders I forget the stats of them but they are lvl 52 I think. So, they actually do exist. Whattya know.

[Ruvanal]

People can sit here and argue with me all they want - but being 2 shotted and not being able to do ANYTHING about it is NOT fun. Personally, I think they should just remove Inferno altogether and keep hell mode as the cap. Hell is certainly more than challenging enough, even to the point that some people will probably be like "fuck this", but getting good enough gear makes it playable. Inferno is just pointless.

From the first time I saw them advertising an Inferno mode for the game, I have seen them spinning the difficulties as:
Normal, Nightmare and Hell modes as the basis of the game progression as in previous version and Hell mode as the normal end point for the majority (90+%) of all the players.
Inferno mode as an optional difficulty for the players that want to be LEET players. I also interpreted their replies as the players going there were also going to need a strong amount of masochism to get through it.

Seems like you butted into their intended and to me advertised design of Inferno.

And no, I not at the point of Inferno content and may not try pushing very far into it when I get there. Depends on what it is like for some of my characters. Off hand I can think of better ways of making an engaging game based off of a highly evolved game of Hack! Oh, wait I have played more entertaining versions of advanced Hack! prior to D1 coming out...

[MongoJerry]

It's a bit premature to say where the game will be once characters are geared to the teeth. It's also worth mentioning there has been a blue post hinting that inferno will gradually become easier. A statement I interpreted to mean that higher affixes like 50-75% damage will begin to drop.

Exactly. I wish I could find those pre-release developer diaries, but I recall one very clearly where they said that they were developing items and sets that would drop specifically act-by-act in Inferno. It was expected that people would farm Act I for a while, then progress to Act II to farm for a while, then to Act III, etc.

But why don't we see such sets now? My speculation is that Blizzard intentionally held them back while they see what exploits and imbalances people discover. They've already hot-fixed a few character skills that were unintentionally too powerful and hot-fixed a few chests that were too easy to farm. Once they're satisfied that the skill and farming exploits are fixed, then they'll start releasing those items that they have already designed. Once those items are released, Inferno will become a lot easier.

[Taelas]

Inferno mode is for the best of the best. I don't see it as being an issue that regular people can't or won't do it. Just be happy you beat Hell and start gathering better gear.

[FoxBat]

Exactly. I wish I could find those pre-release developer diaries, but I recall one very clearly where they said that they were developing items and sets that would drop specifically act-by-act in Inferno. It was expected that people would farm Act I for a while, then progress to Act II to farm for a while, then to Act III, etc.

Something else Jay said seemed to contradict that, that Act 4 Hell was expected to be a longer-term farm spot. You could find great inferno-worthy items in A4 hell, they'd just be much rarer. So that means you could always fall back to hell if you wanted some "casual" farm runs.

When people are saying "the gear you need to beat X doesn't spawn before X", I'm not sure if this is completely true. It may well just be much rarer, it is supposed to take a month to find when the game has been out hardly two weeks. If you push ahead you'll surely see more drops, and maybe farming in such rough spots is more efficient, but that doesn't mean it's the only place you can gear up. We don't have any data to confirm drop chances with, just the anectodes of people that haven't been playing the game long enough.

[ViralSpiral]

Remember how like 500 people had legitimate runes for Enigma like two weeks after 1.10? I do too!

[Mavfin]

Remember how like 500 people had legitimate runes for Enigma like two weeks after 1.10? I do too!

Yeah, so many D2 comparisons conveniently forget that you could:

A) rush/leech to 80 in a day
B) the 'best' runeworded gear was easy to get if you didn't ask too many questions about how it was obtained

Neither of which is really true for D3.

[ViralSpiral]

Yet, anyhow. That was my biggest regret of not getting to play D2 until a year after its release, I never got to play on Bnet before dupes took over. But that was my point in comparing to 1.10 two weeks after; almost no one had legitimately obtained elite uniques, high end rune words, or anything else we now consider standard gear. Heck, I have trouble looking for any 1.13 build guides that suggest anything OTHER than Enigma for armour (I have, in well over 5,000 hours of expansion play, not seen either of the high end runes necessary for it outside of 1.10 mods I used to play.)

My point being - let's see if these complaints about poor gear exist in six weeks, after people have had time to puzzle out where the good farming even is, or what gear is good. I bet there's half a dozen legendaries of considerable potency people don't even know exist yet, much less where to get them. People are approaching the game with the mentality of people who've played WoW/D2 for years and for the majority of the time knew most or all of what there was to know. We're still in the exploration stages here, and even I know it's too soon to judge.

Hell, I remember when LoD first came out and people thought there wasn't going to be any more viable solo-8 builds for Hell because of all the changes. That was a laugh three or four weeks later. Hell didn't get scary at all until 1.10.

[FireIceTalon]

Inferno mode is for the best of the best. I don't see it as being an issue that regular people can't or won't do it. Just be happy you beat Hell and start gathering better gear.

Too bad it has very little to do with how good a player is, and much more to do with how much PUNISHMENT they can endure. It is an issue, or it wouldn't be being brought up by numerous people with a trillion threads on multiple forums in the first place.

*Edit* - it is very well known that most of the people who are currently in later acts of Inferno got there by rushing, taking advantage of chest exploits that have since been fixed, and before several skills were nerfed. Overall, only a VERY small population of the D3 community has even unlocked Inferno much less actually ventured deep into it.

[MongoJerry]

Too bad it has very little to do with how good a player is, and much more to do with how much PUNISHMENT they can endure.

Yes and no. As I stated above, my conjecture is that Blizzard held back items purposely so that they can slowly release them in patches after fixing skill, item, and farming exploits that are found by the player community.

However, and this is a big HOWEVER, you are not as good of a player now as you will be in two more months of playing D2. I can say this confidently, because I notice that every day, I get better at playing this game. Just when I think that all I need is some extra gear to progress, I get smacked by a hardcore close call or a hardcore death screen. I then think about it and most often realize that I could have gotten out of that situation or could have avoided the death or near death had I done something differently. I then learn to play better when that situation arises.

I also know that there are different levels of individual player skill, because I have been playing with Frag in hardcore, and I see and hear over Mumble how he breaks down situations, his skills, and his equipment at a level I had never experienced before. He has unfortunately been sometimes too nice to tell me when I screw up, and I have to outright ask him what I should have done better sometimes. But playing with him, I've learned a lot.

Finally, I can tell that there are people with better skills, because there are people who are playing in hardcore Inferno. I don't know how far someone has progressed in hardcore Inferno, but I know that they are there. To help you play better, consider playing as if you were on hardcore. Play at an earlier act of Inferno and see if you can beat all of the boss and champion packs without dying. If/when you do die, think about what you could have done better and try again.

I realize that this post could be considered an "l2p" post, but really what it's saying is that with only 2 weeks since release, we all have to "l2p."

[FireIceTalon]

Except that in Inferno mode, almost everything 2-shots you, even in Act 1, unless you have about 40k health (I'm only working with around 25k). You will see when you get there

I have to hand it to you though, playing hardcore on this game really takes a special, unique breed of gamer with untold patience. I would never even consider it - even if I had the patience since I really dont like the idea of spending a huge amount of time on a char and then losing it for good if I die. And with how laggy the game is sometimes. If you beat the game on hardcore Inferno, I guess this is the ultimate achievement, but all it takes is one lag spike or just one unfortunate instance outside of your control (and believe me, there are PLENTY of those) and everything is gone. No thank you.

[MonTy]

Taking a step back from it all, I confess that I have rushed through it way too fast. Got a bit caught up in seeing what the fuss is about and wanting to play with others. Really felt like I deviated from my standards of no twinking and absolutely diminished my gameplay experience from using the Auction House and rushing Inferno content.

I've decided to make a whole new account and start from scratch with the rule of not using the Auction House. I've never twinked in any Action RPG before, so this was really my first time experiencing it. At the core this game is about item finding and advancing your character- I found accelerating that using outside means will just shorten that enjoyment of progression.

I know I could have just deleted characters, but too much is affected account wide- blacksmith, gold, and achievements. I'm looking forward to taking my time and enjoying the game how I normally play :)