What is Occupy Wallstreet?

[kandrathe]

On one hand, you point out a comparison that's irrelevant, then on the other you make a comparison that's irrelevant.

You are right.

I don't know the answer to those qeustions, but I suspect it's a single digit percentage for the CEO and somewhere on the order of 50% of the average employees.

Having witnessed it numerous times for the fortune 500 I've worked at... What they tend to do is give the new CEO a signing bonus of preferred stock (let's say $4 million, like Meg Whitman just got). The idea then is that they hang around long enough for that to vest, and the person then has a stake in the outcome of the corporation. When they leave, they usually get some severance parachute to help them along to their next fiasco (Leo Apotheker got $7.2 million after just 11 months on the job). But, HP is an unusual case. More like comparing the New York Yankees, to the Charleston River Dogs. There are probably oodles of River Dogs, for every Yankee. I have more of a problem with the exit bonuses, than with the signing incentives. Failures should fail. That is fair.

This conveniently plays right into your other point, which I completely agree with... that everyone needs to be suspect about any and all data presented. How it's presented, who's presenting it, what is the exact wording used, and how are they trying use all of these hard facts to deceive you.

Yes. I try to supply sources so people can reach their own conclusions. In this case, I omitted what the Feds omit, which are all the various perks and special benefits with which executives are curried.

[Frag]

It takes *real* leadership to implement fundamental changes to the society.

Or a big stick.



Usually a stick, sometimes a target.

[DeeBye]

"As for me, I am deeply a democrat; this is why I am in no way a socialist. Democracy and socialism cannot go together. You can't have it both ways... socialism is a new form of slavery. -- Alexis de Tocqueville, "Notes for a Speech on Socialism" (1848)

Socialism is slavery, really? That is so beneath you.

[kandrathe]

Socialism is slavery, really? That is so beneath you.

I just looked for something contrary to FIT's BRIGHT RED sig claiming socialism is god. I could have gone for Sir Winston Churchill's "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings. The inherent virtue of Socialism is the equal sharing of miseries." or "Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy."

But, I opted for the de Tocqueville quote, who wrote directly during the time of the publication of the Communist Manifesto.

He should just go for the image... More pictures, less words...

[FireIceTalon]

Me and Kand fundamentally disagree on that issue, no use arguing about it cause neither of us will change the others mind.

I will say this though: Totalitarianism (which can occur in any kind of system, be it capitalist, socialist, communist, fascist/neo-corporate, etc), not socialism, is slavery. But most people mistakenly conflate the two (many do not even know what these terms truly mean and use them blindly, like the Tea Partiers who call Obama a Marxist - lol...he is anything but), they have no relationship to one another. Early Marxist philosophers like Rosa Luxemburg, even warned Lenin that a Vanguard revolution would lead to totalitarianism/dictatorship and would undermine the very principles of socialism (something I agree with), although Lenin at heart, I don't think was a bad guy. Stalin and Mao are a different story of course, but they were anything but socialist. They couldn't have cared less about the concerns of others, or about equality, freedom, justice and democracy, thus any reasonable and self-respecting socialist or commie should, and does, view them as despicable. They had only their own desire for power in mind, nothing else. The revolution, according to the early socialists, had to come from the workers, not a small central party, and it had to begin in the highest capitalist society (which at the time, meant Germany rather than Russia).

I do have to say, Winston Churchill certainly had a way with words, heh. But he was wrong

[kandrathe]

I do have to say, Winston Churchill certainly had a way with words, heh. But he was wrong

I rather liked this one...

Capitalism is the exploitation of man by man. Yes? Well socialism is exactly the reverse. -- Len Deighton, quoting an anonymous Czechoslovakian joke in the 1960s, in Funeral in Berlin (1964)

And... I respect Marx for his ideological scholarship... I think where he is weakest is in his hand waving on his expectations on the rising consciousness of the proletariat. As we've seen, ultimately, human survival will overrule loftier goals. Which is why, I believe that when the Occupy Everything movement hits -25 degree wind chills in NYC, human survival instincts will remind the protesters of the advantages of central heating and the other civilized amenities of housing.

A simpler test of socialism is that if Deebye had two beers for the whole weekend, would he willingly share one with you or I, or would he keep them both for himself?

[Ashock]

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/10/17/gr...i-parties/

[Quark]

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/10/17/gr...i-parties/

You just linked Hot Air non-ironically. This is why I can't post politics on this board.

[kandrathe]

You just linked Hot Air non-ironically. This is why I can't post politics on this board.

Is Hot Air another sensationalizing low journalism standards "Daily Beast" type site? Godwin link is as good as a Godwin.

My contribution...

Thirteen Observations made by Lemony Snicket while watching Occupy Wall Street from a Discreet Distance

1. If you work hard, and become successful, it does not necessarily mean you are successful because you worked hard, just as if you are tall with long hair it doesn’t mean you would be a midget if you were bald.

2. “Fortune” is a word for having a lot of money and for having a lot of luck, but that does not mean the word has two definitions.

3. Money is like a child—rarely unaccompanied. When it disappears, look to those who were supposed to be keeping an eye on it while you were at the grocery store. You might also look for someone who has a lot of extra children sitting around, with long, suspicious explanations for how they got there.

4. People who say money doesn’t matter are like people who say cake doesn’t matter—it’s probably because they’ve already had a few slices.

5. There may not be a reason to share your cake. It is, after all, yours. You probably baked it yourself, in an oven of your own construction with ingredients you harvested yourself. It may be possible to keep your entire cake while explaining to any nearby hungry people just how reasonable you are.

6. Nobody wants to fall into a safety net, because it means the structure in which they’ve been living is in a state of collapse and they have no choice but to tumble downwards. However, it beats the alternative.

7. Someone feeling wronged is like someone feeling thirsty. Don’t tell them they aren’t. Sit with them and have a drink.

8. Don’t ask yourself if something is fair. Ask someone else—a stranger in the street, for example.

9. People gathering in the streets feeling wronged tend to be loud, as it is difficult to make oneself heard on the other side of an impressive edifice.

10. It is not always the job of people shouting outside impressive buildings to solve problems. It is often the job of the people inside, who have paper, pens, desks, and an impressive view.

11. Historically, a story about people inside impressive buildings ignoring or even taunting people standing outside shouting at them turns out to be a story with an unhappy ending.

12. If you have a large crowd shouting outside your building, there might not be room for a safety net if you’re the one tumbling down when it collapses.

13. 99 percent is a very large percentage. For instance, easily 99 percent of people want a roof over their heads, food on their tables, and the occasional slice of cake for dessert. Surely an arrangement can be made with that niggling 1 percent who disagree.

http://http://occupywriters.com/by-lemony-snicket

[Ashock]

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/10/17/gr...i-parties/

You just linked Hot Air non-ironically. This is why I can't post politics on this board.

This is not Hot Air's opinion. This is them reporting on real news iems, with links. They did not make this up, they are just reporting it. The distinction should be clear enough, no?

However, would something from the New Yorker magazine be more acceptible to you?

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/ev...china.html

[kandrathe]

However, would something from the New Yorker magazine be more acceptable to you?

One idiot does not a village make. So, representatives from the lunatic fringe are there. Are you surprised? The media are looking for something sensational to report to get us all agitated enough to watch their advertising.

[Jester]

This is not Hot Air's opinion. This is them reporting on real news iems, with links. They did not make this up, they are just reporting it. The distinction should be clear enough, no?

Yes. Specifically, anything involving this sentence...

Now the White House has apparently decided to align itself with Communists and Nazis, at least for the political benefit...

... is certainly not just "reporting."

-Jester

[FireIceTalon]

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/10/17/gr...i-parties/

You just linked Hot Air non-ironically. This is why I can't post politics on this board.

This is not Hot Air's opinion. This is them reporting on real news iems, with links. They did not make this up, they are just reporting it. The distinction should be clear enough, no?

However, would something from the New Yorker magazine be more acceptible to you?

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/ev...china.html

I guess this bunch right here represents the entire Tea Party also, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S38VioxnBaI

Your straw-man tactics are so transparent, and are an insult to any rational persons intelligence. People like you are the reason why we never have, and never will be able to, have a direct democracy. Hamilton was right after all, sorry Jefferson.

[kandrathe]

People are dumber than dirt.

There is that subtle line between pointing out the obvious and rubbing someone's nose in crap.... There is really no need to condemn (most) of humanity, and Ashock, as "dumb" because he posted a groaner of a link. Something like... You get more honey with sugar, than say hand grenades. But, hand grenades sure are fun...

[FireIceTalon]

*Edited I was still a bit heated from his post on page 1 (that he has yet to justify and/or defend). We are all guilty of straw man arguments at times, myself included, but I feel like he makes it a point to use them purposely, or may be he is just trolling? I don't know.

Had to fix the quote in my sig too, I knew something was off about it, haha.

[DeeBye]

This is why I can't post politics on this board.

These discussions almost always boil down to the far left sniping with the far right. The middle ground is always ignored because SHOCKING WORDS LOUD NOISES.

The middle ground is boring as hell, and that's why no one vehemently argues its position in a debate like this.

[eppie]

These discussions almost always boil down to the far left sniping with the far right. The middle ground is always ignored because SHOCKING WORDS LOUD NOISES.

The middle ground is boring as hell, and that's why no one vehemently argues its position in a debate like this.

O come on!! I don't see so much far right and left on the lounge.
There is a cultural difference between the US and europe but that is something else.
In europe we are still pretty shocked if we hear that in the US you have presidential candidates who say hurricanes are a punishment from god, but that doesn't make us far left wing?!

[kandrathe]

In europe we are still pretty shocked if we hear that in the US you have presidential candidates who say hurricanes are a punishment from god, but that doesn't make us far left wing?!

Ridiculous!

We all know that two watery tumultuous beings, one male and one female, Apsu (sweet water) and Tiamat (salt water) had wild sex and from their union there come forth a variety of sea monsters and gods. In the ensuing chaos Tiamat, the female creator, tries to take control. Her descendants unite against her, choosing one of their number - Marduk, the god of Babylon - to lead them. So, then armed with a hurricane and riding a tempest drawn by four fiery steeds, Marduk meets Tiamat and her evil accomplice Kingu in battle. He kills them both.

Then splitting the monstrous corpse of Tiamat into two parts, he creates the heaven from the top half, from the other half the earth. In heaven he constructs a dwelling place for his colleagues, the gods. Realizing that they will need a race of servants, he uses the blood of Kingu to create the first man. This is followed by other necessary tasks, such as the creation of rivers, plants and animals.

The hurricane is just one of the weapons of Marduk!

[Bolty]

O come on!! I don't see so much far right and left on the lounge.

This is now the best thread ever.

In a related note, I'm trying to decide if linking to an article comparing Obama to Nazis is a thread Godwin. Sure, someone didn't type it directly IN the thread, but I'm pretty sure it still counts.

Anyhow, game on.

[Concillian]

The middle ground is boring as hell, and that's why no one vehemently argues its position in a debate like this.

That and when you argue the middle ground the left thinks you're right and the right thinks you're left, because people, especially people who regularly discuss politics, often see what strikes them and ignore what doesn't, so you start getting it from all sides.

My mom will sit there and quietly listen to you until you say something specific about one of her hot button issues (and she sits and watches Fox News ALL day every day, she has a lot of hot button issues). She will ignore the fact that you were saying things she agreed with for a few minutes and then launch into you over some very specific little thing you said.

It's what people do on the TV news shows, political debates, the senate and house floor, etc... It's like people are trained to ignore rationality and "win" at all costs, even if "winning" results in a lose-lose situation. Right or left doesn't matter. Most politicians do it, most right and left slanted media. They all argue over who's going to dust the mantle while a wrecking ball is taking out a bedroom or two. Sometimes it's right to agree to something you don't ideologically agree with just so you can just make some progress, but you won't find many politicians doing that. As soon as they do, someone will publicly fault them for it (their own party many times) and make it into a huge mess that grinds the whole political process to a halt for a week or so.

I think about politics from time to time, but I cannot seriously involve myself. The people are just plain irrational. At this point, I'm convinced that it's not possible to solve any of the real problems with the country and at some point the government will strangle itself in debt and we'll all be forced to start over. In the meantime, I think I might take some cues from government fiscal policy and start spending more than I earn every year. I mean, they're professionals and they've been doing it for 50 years straight or so, it must be a pretty good strategy, right?