Trying to do the Math: AC vs. -DFE?

[lyyn]

My Rogue (not one of the 1½ Snobs – she pre-dates them) is an archer type rogue that can use magic but doesn't really do so a lot. She will cast Guardians, when something right around the corner could kill her, the occasional Stone Curse, but she very seldom uses offensive spells, if ever. She spent her mid to late twentys mostly doing Hell or Crypt clears in Normal and Nightmare difficulty. By now she has found some pretty good stuff.

She is turning 30 soon and I want to see how well she does on Hell/Hell.
Now she's facing a choice because she found 2 excellent pieces of armour:

- Scavenger Carapace – no further comment
- Saintly FPM of the Wolf – I'm guessing this is as good as it *realistically* is going to get for a looong time


Her setup with the FPM brings her to 233 AC. Somewhat helpful, but could be better, I guess.
Wearing the SC she would of course be naked AC-wise in Hell/Hell
BUT
only in melee, which she hates anyway and tries to avoid like the plague.
My impression is, that >50% attacks in Hell are ranged anyway, meaning AC is of no use, but those -15 dfe could help a LOT. All her resists are maxed (Obsidian Bow of Perfection, yay – bought, not found, but I'm just happy to have it) so all ranged-only attackers should be manageable

OTOH she would be in deep s...erious problems if melee attackers got to her. The likelihood of that happening is pretty big. Her damage (52-70) is not necessarily stunning (sorry, couldn't help myself) so she can't be sure of keeping everything at a distance or even holding a chokepoint.
While trying to figure this out, I consulted this *incredible* analysis: (http://realmsbeyond.net/diablo/cdosmosis.html)
Only, it seems written for chars that WANT to melee, so it weighs HP against -DFE. I don't want to get hit in the first place so I'm trying to figure out how to weigh -DFE against AC

Right now I see three options:

1) Go with the FPM
Pros:
- min useful AC is ~190(?) / max is ~325(?) so AC 233 seems to be in the range of useful AC
- offers some protection against those attackers she is most vulnerable to
Cons:
- AC is useless against more than 50% of all attackers (ranged) while -DFE always helps
- I suspect AC 233 isn't as safely in the useful range as it sounds, because the progression – and the danger – isn't linear

2) Go with the SC
Pros:
- -DFE is helpful against every attack so she doesn't empty her belt in 2 seconds when facing a mixed group.
- -DFE is more reliable then AC and doesn't become meaningless when the Monsters get tougher.
Cons:
- she's dead meat when a melee type manages to get close to her

3) I got it totally wrong

I would greatly appreciate any opinions.

[Hammerskjold]

One of my warrior had a Saint Wolf FPM, and I think that was the highest AC plate he ever wore.

How about option 2a. A fast block shield? (IMO Holy Defender > Stormshield. Hell, even a magical fast block shield can do.)
If you have enough DEX you can have perfect block IIRC. With the respectable AC numbers that may help too.

Possible Cons:

- You will need to do the gear switch dance. (Bow to shield\weapon)

- Still melee range, obviously.

- If you're relying on the Obsid bow for maxed resist, mixed mobs (magic ranged + melee) can be a big problem. Gotta separate them or be very careful. (Unless you have the high AC+Max resist jewelry gear setup that is. But hunting for high optimum gear can get tedious sometimes.)

[lyyn]

How about option 2a. A fast block shield? (IMO Holy Defender > Stormshield. Hell, even a magical fast block shield can do.)

You mean stand right in front of Monsters and whack at them?? *shudders*

I went back, crunched the numbers again, and came to the conclusion that I was looking at it the wrong way. I figured it all came down to damage and I wasn't doing enough with my arrows.
So I revisited your suggestion, took up a (ugh) sword and IT WORKED!

Wow!

Only problem is, I wanted to be careful and do a test run in the Crypt. Started to have fun, got carried away and leveled, bleh.
But: I had a lot of fun NOT reaching my mark Ah well, there's always the next character.
Even tried my first telekill. Of course it went horribly wrong, but that's what item recovery is for...

Still wondering though: Are the numbers I had workable? What numbers are?

[Hammerskjold]

I figured it all came down to damage and I wasn't doing enough with my arrows.

I don't remember the exact numbers, but iirc I just followed what some players did as far as important numbers go. The number I aimed for was for my minimum arrow dmg = stun damage, for the highest damaging monster in Hell\Hell, which was one of them Knights type.

You most likely know the exact numbers better than I do since I haven't played or looked at JGuide in a while.

But in most actual play session, most rogues I played did not always have enough arrow damage to stun at clvl 30 either. There was a few exception. One rogue I had was low ac, resist shirt and hat. +Damage bow, and all her jewelry slot was +All. Iirc Her DEX at the time was high, but not maxed.

And she just barely reached min arrow damage =stun damage. She had a HDefender shield and weapon in a backpack as well. You could shop for elixirs to max out DEX or any stats that needs boosting, but that can get tedious.

If you do want to stick to mostly using arrows though, there is another option of knockback bows. KB can cause problems in multi, but if you're doing this as a solo mission that's not a concern.

[lyyn]

But in most actual play session, most rogues I played did not always have enough arrow damage to stun at clvl 30 either. There was a few exception. One rogue I had was low ac, resist shirt and hat. +Damage bow, and all her jewelry slot was +All. Iirc Her DEX at the time was high, but not maxed.

Yep, my situation exacly.
Well, I guess I have to get used to having my inventory open and swaping gear a lot. At least until I pumped some more iron.
Thanks for nudging me in the right direction.

BTW, I forgot to ask :

IMO Holy Defender > Stormshield

?
kind of goes back to the original question. So you didn't feel 25 AC is worth +4 (+6) DFE ?

[Hammerskjold]

BTW, I forgot to ask :

IMO Holy Defender > Stormshield

?
kind of goes back to the original question. So you didn't feel 25 AC is worth +4 (+6) DFE ?

Just as a broader AC vs DFE personal opinion.

Personally, I'd probably go with neither. Even with a rogue's higher DEX potential that iirc gives some AC boost, at that clvl the numbers (again iirc) is not in your favour.

A Saintly Wolf FPM is nothing to sneeze at. But it's probably not going to help that much if you're facing multiple Blood Knights at the same time. But Blood Knights aren't the ones that makes my blood cold at this clvl. Personally Drakes and Maws are the ones that makes me pay attention. Drakes can reach you fast with their charge, and put you in stun lock. IIRC that's where a high enough AC can help.

DFE, at this clvl and in hell\hell mode, again IMO only. Not worth it either. It may work in some cases at this clvl, but in general for me it's in the same boat as above.

And again, this is due to my playstyle of trying to be as efficiently lazy as possible. I hate manual gear swapping. I can live with bow to weapon-shield swap. And that's about my limit.

Even though this was written for the Warrior class,
http://realmsbeyond.net/diablo/cdwarstyle.html
I found with a few appropriate Rogue specific substitution, it was just as applicable.

Short version:

Both nice armour, but if I had enough DEX I usually prefer fast block shield+weapon backup, and or KB bows. Basic idea is, I know I'm probably not going to be an armoured tank. So instead I'll concentrate on either blocking+weapon, and or knocking them back so they can't even reach me. If I were to put on a plate for it's AC\DFE bonus, the AC\DFE will not be expected to hold up vs Blood knights, but Drakes and Maws.

Edited add: Further thinking, IMO I'd probably give a slight edge to the AC of the Saint Wolf FPM in this case.

From the link 63 is the magic number for stun dmg, and 93 for some bosses. So you're not far off.

[Nystul]

233 AC at level 30 on hell difficulty is fairly effective against lava maw, and somewhat helpful against maelstorm and cave vipers. Against the big boys it will do nothing at all. But lava maw and maelstorm are good enemies to have protection against since they can attack so fast and threaten stunlock.

-15 DFE is not going to prevent you from getting stunned in hell/hell at level 30, so the real question is whether it will allow you to take an extra hit without dying. In that regard, the comparison against extra hitpoints or mana is quite relevant.

I feel like rogues can be the most awkward class for jumping straight to hell/hell. It is hard to get enough damage to stun, hard to get effective AC with bow in hand, and hard to get a really big pool of either life or mana. Usually at that stage I would ignore the AC issue and use armor and hat to max resistances and add to stats.

But as you know, it really just comes down to how many monsters you wake up. If you keep that under control then you will be fine with whatever equipment.

[Hammerskjold]

But lava maw and maelstorm are good enemies to have protection against since they can attack so fast and threaten stunlock.

I forgot about those maelstorm claws, ugh. IIRC Firewall can help to block them. And if you have sufficient AC that can help too.

[lyyn]

Both nice armour, but if I had enough DEX I usually prefer fast block shield+weapon backup, and or KB bows

Usually I don't worry about AC that much. I feel doing enough damage to stun is my best defence, so I am free to wear a Shirt Of whatever stat I happen to need. It's just that without stunning I feel naked, but the s/s setup takes care of that and raises the damage (76) to survivable levels.
Now all I have to do is NOT try my next telekill attempt against 9 Snow Witches in uncertain territory

But as you know, it really just comes down to how many monsters you wake up. If you keep that under control then you will be fine with whatever equipment.

You just mentioned one of my bigger problems.
Generally speaking, I get the concept of “go slow”/”be careful” but I sometimes have the feeling that in unknown territory, especially if you can't see the walls yet, the practical application of that concept is
“go exactly 1 tile... wait 10 sec... repeat...”
Is there a better way? Because sometimes, depending on the day I had, I can take only a couple of minutes of that before I get impatient and do something stupid. Or do I just need to be more disciplined about that?



lg

[lyyn]

**** RANT ALERT ****

I just found out what the rarest object in the whole game is. Forget Deadly Hunter, KSoH, etc.
They are all nothing compared to …. a #%&@!!# shield.
The Holy Defender I had used in my s/s setup belonged to my Mage, who has long since gotten it back.

The s/s had worked great, so my Rogue set out to find her own shield. How hard could that be, right? Holy Defender, Stormshield, any #%&@!!# Buckler of Blocking, or, better even, anything with +magic, so she could trade with the Mage. He is searching for one of those anyway.
With so many options, and base type not really important, how long can that possibly take, right?
HA!
1, maybe 2 hours is what I thought when I set out.
HA!
More like one shield every 2 hours... and that's doesn't even mean an enchanted shield.
Still don't have one. Turns out shields are the most elusive item there is. Go figure!

**** END RANT ****

Phew, feel better now. Sorry for ranting, but I had to get it off my chest.
I just wonder, how warriors manage...

lg,
lyyn

[weakwarrior]

Well + magic shields and SS can't be dropped by the same monster. And neither that, nor the holy defender can be bought by high level characters. Warriors generally only need +res or +AC with a HP suffix. That can be bought at any level.

[Hammerskjold]

Phew, feel better now. Sorry for ranting, but I had to get it off my chest.
I just wonder, how warriors manage...

lg,
lyyn

This may or may not help, assuming you're still talking about HF.

Reading your original char description, you said this Rogue doesn't really use much offensive spells. Either by choice or circumstance whatever.

But this being D1, 'Spells rules everything around me, mana mana drinks y'all'. I've played a rogue very similar to your description. Mostly bow, S\S, some utility spells but not much offense spells. It can be done, but it can be slower and more challenging.

Brute forcing the odds is possible by simply CLightning in whatever appropriate area that gives you the best odds of finding that shield. Normal difficulty of course, you're there for a fast pinata run.

But, this is not really possible if you don't have access to, or choose not to use CLightning\FBall, aka the major offensive spells.

TL,DR:

One possible but unproven method, is to absolutely swear that you don't really want any fast block shield. Even play a char that doesn't want or can't use one. Not a guarantee, but if my own experience is any indicator, you'll be neck deep in HDefenders. (Or Gnatstings if you're a mage.)

[lyyn]

And neither that, nor the holy defender can be bought by high level characters.

They can't? See, that's what I get for not paying to much attention to shop item creation.
But they should still drop, I hope?

Reading your original char description, you said this Rogue doesn't really use much offensive spells. Either by choice or circumstance whatever.
...
Brute forcing the odds is possible by simply CLightning in whatever appropriate area that gives you the best odds of finding that shield. Normal difficulty of course, you're there for a fast pinata run.

Well, she can hold her own when she uses magic, if she has to – or gets lazy
CL 10, FB 11 is ok for a rogue, I guess.
Shooting just feels more rewarding....


I just figured, that since I'm not (only) hunting uniques (=Laz-Run) I might as well have some fun doing it. Since trying to find 2 suffixes (well... 3) and base type not important seemed to be all over the map, drop-wise, I just went to Nightmare/Church and started going, confident that somewhere along the line something, anything would pop.
Nada.
So after Hell/Caves I turned around and repeated.
Nada.

Eh, whatever... it's all in the hunt, right? And I AM having fun along the way.
It's just that I got it into my head not to go back into Hell/Hell until I have my #%&@!!# shield.
By now, I probably would do fine using only my bow, but now this whole finding a shield thing has taken on a life of its own and I'm just not going back until I have one

One possible but unproven method, is to absolutely swear that you don't really want any fast block shield. Even play a char that doesn't want or can't use one. Not a guarantee, but if my own experience is any indicator, you'll be neck deep in HDefenders. (Or Gnatstings if you're a mage.)

Oh no, that's well proven! Works every time! Problem is: Your luck will only turn, if you actually mean it. Otherwise how could it be annoying?
Naah, right now it’s down to who is more stubborn: Murphy or me?

[Hammerskjold]

Well, she can hold her own when she uses magic, if she has to – or gets lazy
CL 10, FB 11 is ok for a rogue, I guess.
Shooting just feels more rewarding....

Those are very decent slvl numbers AFAIK.
And yes, shooting can feel more rewarding.

Naah, right now it’s down to who is more stubborn: Murphy or me?

You may or may not find this helpful. I'm playing (re-installed after all this talk pulled me back into this damn game) HF:F again. SP only, since I'm running a 64 bit OS, and apparently there is no known fix at this time for HF multi in 64 bit. (At least not from what I tried after about 2 nights of google-ing, and mostly finding other people suffering the same woe.)

Just about 5 minutes prior writing this, my staff wielding mage found a HDefender while blasting through normal Hive. This after a few Stormshields in the same area. (Hive).

So a semi serious reply might be, go to the eyesore of an area that is The Hive. There seems to be a sale on SShields and a few HDefenders at the moment.

[lyyn]

You may or may not find this helpful. I'm playing (re-installed after all this talk pulled me back into this damn game) HF:F again.

That's what you get for straying too close to such an addictive game.
Should I feel guilty?

SP only, since I'm running a 64 bit OS, and apparently there is no known fix at this time for HF multi in 64 bit. (At least not from what I tried after about 2 nights of google-ing, and mostly finding other people suffering the same woe.)

I don't know what the problem IS, so I'm a little afraid of stating something obvious or stupid here, but have you tried VirtualPC/XP Mode?
Or if you still have an XP CD you could try this:
http://downloads.vmware.com/d/ (This is what I'm using on my Win7 64 bit Notebook. I can't connect with games running on my old XP computers -no IPX on the host system- , so no muling, but perfectly ok for solo/multi when I'm on the road.)

Just about 5 minutes prior writing this, my staff wielding mage found a HDefender while blasting through normal Hive. This after a few Stormshields in the same area. (Hive).

So that's where all the shields went?! I bet you have 1 or 2 Shields of Brilliance too, right?
STOP using up the game-wide shield quota!!


See? It does work every time. You can't use one and I can't find one... Probably just one of those Zen / “watched water won't boil” - things...

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go check out that sale in the (ugh) Hive...

[Hammerskjold]

That's what you get for straying too close to such an addictive game.
Should I feel guilty?

Yes, yes you should. Nah, since the D3 buzz is uhm, buzzing I've noticed some people re-playing, or discovering Diablo. Of course by 'Diablo', most seems to mean D2. AKA, that weird video game series convention where people call the latest game in a series by the original name. IE: 'Call of Halo #9', will be called by most as 'Call of Halo'. (Avoided by games with series and subtitle names ie Fellder's Strolls: Skybeam.)

I don't know what the problem IS, so I'm a little afraid of stating something obvious or stupid here, but have you tried VirtualPC/XP Mode?

Yep, no go either.

(This is what I'm using on my Win7 64 bit Notebook. I can't connect with games running on my old XP computers -no IPX on the host system- , so no muling, but perfectly ok for solo/multi when I'm on the road.)

I should've been more specific, I haven't found any solution yet for Vista 64. From what I've read my chances are better with win7. I haven't upgraded yet since it's technically a workstation, emphasis on work programs therefore stability is first priority. Inb4: lololol vista 'stable'.

It definitely seems to point to lack of IPX issue, multi option appears but error message 'unable to create character' pops up. Though regular D1 seems ok, I can create and play offline multi chars fine. Though at this point I don't see myself returning much to regular D1. HF:F is more my thing and a chicken wing.

but perfectly ok for solo/multi

Pretty much this right here. What I cared more was multi\but offline solo. Which is why I'm interested in D3 actual gameplay at least from their demos, but their lack of offline mode just kills it for me.

So that's where all the shields went?! I bet you have 1 or 2 Shields of Brilliance too, right?
STOP using up the game-wide shield quota!!


See? It does work every time. You can't use one and I can't find one... Probably just one of those Zen / “watched water won't boil” - things...

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go check out that sale in the (ugh) Hive...

No brilliance shield, but my clvl 7 Barbarian was offered shields of blocking twice by Gris.

But my face when he found a Crystalline warhammer of Sky in Normal Church4, allowing him to jump into Nightmare church. Damage now at the 30's. At clvl 11.

[lyyn]

But my face when he found a Crystalline warhammer of Sky in Normal Church4, allowing him to jump into Nightmare church. Damage now at the 30's. At clvl 11.

Mine right now:

   

I can't believe it! FINALLY!!
I was just done with a full clear of Nightmare, including Crypt. Again no luck in finding a shield. So I gave the Hive a chance, cleared lvl1... lvl2... lvl3... The *very last* drop on lvl4 was a Shield of Brilliance – yay!!!

Hell/Hell is waiting...

OTOH that also means, that she will soon take a well deserved, long vacation...
So, you said a couple of times a Barbarian is fun? Maybe that's one melee type I can get out of church...


PS: Any luck with multi?

[Hammerskjold]

So I gave the Hive a chance, cleared lvl1... lvl2... lvl3... The *very last* drop on lvl4 was a Shield of Brilliance – yay!!!

Nice. Speaking of which, my Barbarian did buy a shield of brilliance. About 30 minutes after writing I don't have one (or particularly want one) for him. My original intent was to have little to no spells, then when a book of TPortal dropped well...maybe just the basic utilities. That's when the brillo shield was offered. And a dreamflange dropped. I'm not going to play him as a magic user, but now I can see trying to get at least a usable TPortal slvl.

So, you said a couple of times a Barbarian is fun? Maybe that's one melee type I can get out of church...

Well Barbarians IMO are fun, but similar to a Warrior that needs a Ksos\Shirotachi to really show what they can do. Barbarians IMO benefits greatly from a 'damage target armor' weapon. Or a Ring of Engagement. I still have that Crystalline hammer, but what I'm using at the moment is a Soldier's axe of Puncturing.

Keep in mind this particular Barbarian has IMO, one of the luckiest streaks so far. And since this is SP, there are SP only items that greatly benefits him ie Veil of Steel. With that and a Nightscape robe he got off a Laz run, he's now a -60 light radius stealth raider.

I stupidly sold off an amulet of harmony forgetting that it stacks with Nightscape's faster hit recovery, but not a biggie at the moment.

Eventually he will need a High AC FPM if he wants to go to Hell\late church\cats\caves, those skeleton\goat arrows can be dangerous. But for Hell\Crypt it's most likely going to be -LR and fast hit recovery over AC.

PS: Any luck with multi?

Sadly nope. On the upside, with SP HF it at least gives me the option of NM\Hell games.

[lyyn]

I'm not going to play him as a magic user, but now I can see trying to get at least a usable TPortal slvl.

TP counts as “using magic”? How do you not go crazy without it?

Keep in mind this particular Barbarian has IMO, one of the luckiest streaks so far. And since this is SP, there are SP only items that greatly benefits him ie Veil of Steel. With that and a Nightscape robe he got off a Laz run, he's now a -60 light radius stealth raider.

Sounds sneaky, I like it. Not exactly my first asociation when I hear Barbarian, but fun. I guess I should try one... My last ditch effort at a melee char.
I even twinked my last attempt at a warrior to the high heavens, hoping that if I get to my favourite age (between 20 – 30) faster, he might be able to sustain my interest. Didn't work. Although... he does make a very good looking mule
Maybe this time will be different, never wielded an axe before...
How do you find enough Infravision? I usually buy/horde any Infravision scroll in sight for emergencies. There never seems to be one available when you really need them. I even have a extra Mule for them.

Sadly nope. On the upside, with SP HF it at least gives me the option of NM\Hell games.

VirtualPC with an XP-image? IPX is installed in the image? Still doesn't work? Hmm...
Maybe if you try VMWare instead of VirtualPC? Never really trusted Microsoft to fully keep the host/VM separated...

PS: two little questions that don't really warrant a new thread:

- is it possible to change a char name without logging on to b.net (still playing HF:Fixed)
- is it possible to change the graphics of the armor type you are wearing? Not the actual picture in the inventory, but your appearance when you wear it?

[Hammerskjold]

TP counts as “using magic”? How do you not go crazy without it?

It was more to do with my love\hate deal with book\item\shop runs. If I could just get TPortal to a decent level, maybe Search as well, then I'd be happy. That was the plan anyway.

What actually happened was after that lucky streak with the stealth gear combo, especially with Veil of Steel's minus mana property. I wound up just using a bunch of scrolls. I did buy some Warp and TPortal and Search books. But I couldn't really use them if I wore Veil of Steel and it's minus Mana points.

I tried my luck in Hell\Hell, not as a 3@30 or anything, more like a 3@34 or so. Though officially he set foot in hell at 30 IIRC. Simply to see how far he could go. Granted this is SP, and I used the benefit of save\reload a couple of times for Diablo himself. Hey I'm pretty rusty.

But he did fairly well I think. A lucky drop of meteoric Axe of haste was crucial in dealing with Advocate types. Any speed\haste would've done the job vs lawyer demons really, but the axe was a really nice touch for a barbarian. Though switching between that and the Soldier's Puncturing axe was kinda not pleasant at times.

However, considering the Puncturing axe was dropped iirc in normal caves in his early 20's, and did the job in Hell\Hell, I think this guy was blessed or something.

Though there was a fairly annoying thing where I rolled a Warlord of Blood level instead of Lachdanan, so the stairs was locked and I could not find the Steel Tome to unlock it anywhere. Thankfully I did have a low level Warp spell, using +magic adders to counter Veil of Steel -mana. (Regular battlegear loadout I was running -9 mana.)

After he survived that, he just had to try and finish all the way to 16. Granted this was SP and he still has to try Hell\ Na-Krull.
But stealth barbarian is definitely do-able. And you may not even need a lot of infra if you keep it at -lr 60.

Side benefit of stealth meleer, witches and liches has more trouble targeting you, and their AI seems to get confused the stealthier you get.

My warrior technically had nicer toys (he finally found a Shirotachi w00t) than the barbarian. Yet this stealth barbarian was doing Crypt runs at an earlier age, and had an easier time compared to my S\S warrior in crypt running.

VirtualPC with an XP-image? IPX is installed in the image? Still doesn't work? Hmm...
Maybe if you try VMWare instead of VirtualPC? Never really trusted Microsoft to fully keep the host/VM separated...

At this point from everything I read, my choices seems to be upgrading to Win 7, dual booting, or buying\building a 'vintage' machine to run older games on. (A shuttle system loaded\dual boot setup with win98 and my old classic games folder would be sweet.)

Only the first is realistically possible for me at this time, and as fun as HF:F is, it will not be what decides the upgrade budget\schedule. (Otherwise I got some serious 'splainin to do.) At this point I'm probably stuck ie just make do with what I have right now. At least there is a HF:F sp version.

re: name change and graphics change, beyond my skills. Hopefully someone with more skills and knowledge in that part can help you out.