Question for Americans about ethnic identity

[[wcip]Angel]

I have a questions:

Would it be considered un-American to wave any other flag than The star-spangled banner on July 4th?

I teach social studies and tomorrow I'm doing a lesson on the topic of culture. In recent years here in Norway, the celebration of our national holiday has met with some criticism and much finger-pointing from many Norwegians when immigrant groups (especially children in school) are allowed to wave the flag representing their ethnic background, e.g Somali, Pakistani, Iraqi, etc instead of the Norwegian flag.

Would this ever happen in the US? Is it common to see Italian, German, Irish flags on the 4th of July? The "hyphenated American" (e.g Italian-American, German-American, African-American), denotes the sense of retaining one's former culture and background, but I suspect many in your country would be criticial of Americans showing their heritage on Independence Day... Am I right in that assumption? Are most Norwegians and Americans in agreement on this? What do you think?

How would you react if you saw an Italian flag being waved on the 4th of July?

[LavCat]

I have a questions:

Would it be considered un-American to wave any other flag than The star-spangled banner on July 4th?

I teach social studies and tomorrow I'm doing a lesson on the topic of culture. In recent years here in Norway, the celebration of our national holiday has met with some criticism and much finger-pointing from many Norwegians when immigrant groups (especially children in school) are allowed to wave the flag representing their ethnic background, e.g Somali, Pakistani, Iraqi, etc instead of the Norwegian flag.

Would this ever happen in the US? Is it common to see Italian, German, Irish flags on the 4th of July? The "hyphenated American" (e.g Italian-American, German-American, African-American), denotes the sense of retaining one's former culture and background, but I suspect many in your country would be criticial of Americans showing their heritage on Independence Day... Am I right in that assumption? Are most Norwegians and Americans in agreement on this? What do you think?

How would you react if you saw an Italian flag being waved on the 4th of July?

In the U.S. it would be very odd to see any other flag but the U.S. flag flying on that date. In my experience. But I am not a flag waving sort of person. If someone wants to fly an Italian flag, that is fine by me. Just no Horde flags, please.

[eppie]

But I am not a flag waving sort of person.

What about flag burning?

No you are right, I also get a rash from flag waving.
Flag waving is for the uneducated masses......so is flag-burning of course.

Angel; interesting question though.

Slightly related and maybe of interest for you.
In the Netherlands there is every year the discussion if we should invite German representatives at the 4 May (remembrance of the deaths during the second world war).

Sometimes in some occasions, some ambassador is invited, but it has never become common practice.
Personally I don't know exactly where I stand on this one.
(let's just say as long as they are not waving flags)

[kandrathe]

I think the relevant flag rule is;

"When flags of two or more nations are displayed, they are to be flown from separate staffs of the same height. The flags should be of approximately equal size. International usage forbids the display of the flag of one nation above that of another nation in time of peace."

So, if you wanted to wave a foreign flag, you'd need to also wave the US flag in the other hand. Or, I guess you might wave two flags in one hand if you were so inclined.

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagcode.htm

[TheDragoon]

I, personally, wouldn't care what flag people were waving though I'd be a bit confused why they were waving another flag. That said, I can definitely imagine people who would take offense to someone flying another nation's flag on the 4th of July (seeing it as a put-down for the US) unless they were also flying the US flag, as Kandrathe suggests.

[Lissa]

But I am not a flag waving sort of person.

What about flag burning?

If done properly, flag burning is fine as it's the preferred method of disposal of old, worn out flags. The flag is to be burned from lower right corner (where the striped are) to upper left corner (where the stars are)

As to the topic at hand, it's considered very poor form to wave a flag other than the US flag on US Independence day.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Would it be considered un-American to wave any other flag than The star-spangled banner on July 4th?

In 4th of July parades, I've seen groups of people of common ancestry marching behind flag bearers carrying both the USA flag and that of their country of origin. I don't remember anyone objecting.

... instead of the Norwegian flag.

I think that is the crux. "Instead" as opposed to "in addition to". Showing both flags indicates pride in both the country one came from and the one chosen to live in. Showing only the flag of the country of birth is an insult to the country that has accepted you. It is a implicit statement that you reject the culture you've chosen to live in.

Would this ever happen in the US? Is it common to see Italian, German, Irish flags on the 4th of July?

That was very common in NYC half a century ago, with all kinds of cultural groups, often in some national costume, marching in Independence Day parades. Seems that about half the police force were wearing kilts.

Vietnam might have changed a lot of that. It polarized a population and gave rise to things like "America, love it or leave it."

The "hyphenated American" (e.g Italian-American, German-American, African-American), denotes the sense of retaining one's former culture and background, but I suspect many in your country would be criticial of Americans showing their heritage on Independence Day... Am I right in that assumption?

I react in exactly the opposite manner. "Hyphenated American" irritates me precisely because it does imply "one's former culture". If a person has chosen to leave their country to move to another, then adopting to the mores and manners of the country of choice should be mandatory. If the person prefers the country of origin, let them go back.

OTOH, pride in origin is natural. I refuse to consider myself as anything other than a citizen of the USA. An 'American', if you will, though I don't like that usage. However, I am proud of my birth and heritage as an Italian and make no attempt to keep it secret (indeed, quite the opposite).

How would you react if you saw an Italian flag being waved on the 4th of July?

Grin.

So, if you wanted to wave a foreign flag, you'd need to also wave the US flag in the other hand.

Why? The law states how two flags should be displayed if they are displayed together. It does not say they have to be displayed together.

And how is that law applied if, for instance, a parade with flag carriers marches down 1st Avenue from 50th to 40th? Tall flag bearers?

--Pete

[LochnarITB]

The "hyphenated American" (e.g Italian-American, German-American, African-American), denotes the sense of retaining one's former culture and background, but I suspect many in your country would be criticial of Americans showing their heritage on Independence Day... Am I right in that assumption?

I react in exactly the opposite manner. "Hyphenated American" irritates me precisely because it does imply "one's former culture". If a person has chosen to leave their country to move to another, then adopting to the mores and manners of the country of choice should be mandatory. If the person prefers the country of origin, let them go back.

OTOH, pride in origin is natural. I refuse to consider myself as anything other than a citizen of the USA. An 'American', if you will, though I don't like that usage. However, I am proud of my birth and heritage as an Italian and make no attempt to keep it secret (indeed, quite the opposite).

That used to grate on me. The way I've made peace with it is to view it as a simple adjective. The hyphenated ethnicity only serves to provide some pre-conceived description of the person and "American" is the important noun that identifies them as a citizen of the USA (per common usage, even though it actually applies to any citizen of any North or South American country). On the other hand, if a person has obtained citizenship, but still insists on being referred to simply as German or Kenyan or whatever, I'd ask why they bothered and wave as they left to go "home".

[[wcip]Angel]

Thanks guys. Some interesting and informative responses. Good point about waiving two flags. Downside is, most children in parades need to hold hands with other children or a teacher.. thus, no dual-wielding flags

[shoju]

While I don't have a problem with people doing much of what they want with / about their heritage, I do think waving another countries flag on the Independence Day of the United States of America would be in poor form, and in some communities (sadly, the one I work in) would probably lead to a down right beating.

I'm an American. I do get a kick out of the fact that I'm also Mexican. My mother was adopted, and didn't know until she was in her 40's that she was indeed full blooded first generation born in America Mexican. We always had figured that she had hispanic roots in her family, but not until we found old adoption information in my grandparents attic and did some research did we find out. Now, my father is 100% german. I don't boast that I'm a "German-Mexican-American", but I do indeed enjoy pointing out that I am mexican. This is mainly because I can make slightly off jokes, because I am the spitting image of my father, and show almost no signs of a hispanic parent.

Back to the topic at hand, If they were flying it on a normal day, I don't care. But, on a day like the 4th of July, I would hope that they can at least understand and respect that this day is the birth of this nation, and it is supposed to be a fairly patriotic day.

Now, I'm unsure of the immigrant makeup %'s in your country, I can't say that the culture in your country would be the same as what we have here in America. Like some of the more seasoned posters pointed out, Vietnam did provide a polarizing and galvanizing opinion to many of Love it or Leave it.

If I were there, I don't think I would be comfortable flying an American Flag on the Norwegian National Holiday. That just seems... Not in good form.

[Concillian]

As has been said, the holiday celebrating the birth of a nation is not a holiday celebrating the birth of another nation.

People have the right to do this, but a person exercising that right also demonstrates something about themself. Who would actually want to fly the flag of another nation on a national holiday like that? I think there is a valid reason to question the people doing so, even if it is legal and cannot rightfully be outlawed. It's basically wearing a t-shirt that says "hey, everybody, I'm a dick!" Again, not sure why someone would want to label themselves like that, but whatever, some people seem to like doing things and being abrasive just because they can. Since I can't really think of another kind of person who would do this, any backlash is likely only reinforcing why they would do it. Don't feed the trolls.

[[wcip]Angel]

As has been said, the holiday celebrating the birth of a nation is not a holiday celebrating the birth of another nation.

They would probably argue that they are not necessarily celebrating the birth of their own nation, but rather showing that the country they live in is a multi-cultural one, and that each flag symbolise each individual culture.

To put it differently, is the concept of "nation" slowly deteriorating as globalisation and internationalisation transform the globe into what Marsall McCluhan referred to as "The Global Village"? With so much migration of both people, ideas, impulses, norms and cultures, as well as the subsequent effects this trend has on previously homogenous "national cultures", is national pride still relevant? When we are so affected by the rest of the world, and many among us come from other parts of the world, shouldn't that diversity be celebrated?

It sounds like I'm arguing FOR something here. I'm really not; but simply trying to provide perceived counter-arguments to what has been said in order to stimulate a response

[eppie]

People have the right to do this, but a person exercising that right also demonstrates something about themself.

You probably read my opinion in my first post. I think flag waving is for the poorly educated. Apart from children that have to do this for school of course.
(no not being a troll but obviously trying to make an extreme statement which does not entirely reflect my opinion........by the way I think people that drink milk and/or sugar in their coffee should sit in separate coffee rooms).
My real question is; what does waving an american flag on a 4th of july parade say about a person than?

Who would actually want to fly the flag of another nation on a national holiday like that?

A moron? But who would like to wave the 'correct' flag of the country on a national holiday?

I think there is a valid reason to question the people doing so, even if it is legal and cannot rightfully be outlawed. It's basically wearing a t-shirt that says "hey, everybody, I'm a dick!"

To me, outspoken patriotism (flag waving) says the same (except when it is time to play international football tournaments of course).

I clearly see the difference between waving an american flag on the 4th of july or waving the flag of another country, don't get me wrong. You do it to make a sort of statement, and making this statement will likely make other people angry or sad, so just don't do it.

But back to my first post where I jokingly asked about flag burning.
Sometimes you see hords of people in the middle east burn an american flag. Does that hurt you? I really couldn't give a c**p.....I mean I just feel pitty for people that think we would be bothered by seeing a bunch of morons burn our flag.

[shoju]

Am I bothered by people burning the American Flag?

No.
It is a right of our people that has been fought and died for.

Do I care if someone else burns my flag to show they hate me?

No.
I'm not one to get uppity because of that. I know people who would, and they do take offense to that, but they are a very stereotypical type of person.

[--Pete]

Hi,

... by the way I think people that drink ... coffee should stay out of my tea room

Fixed

My real question is; what does waving an american flag on a 4th of july parade say about a person than?

The flag is a symbol of the country (and not just the USA). The 4th of July is considered the day that the country was 'born'. I guess it would make more sense to wave scrolls of copies of the Declaration of Independence, but that would be awkward.

To me, outspoken patriotism (flag waving) says the same (except when it is time to play international football tournaments of course).

I know you meant the last part in jest, but think about it. Basically, you are saying that it is OK to wave a flag to show support for a group representing the entity the flag is symbolic of but it is not OK to wave the flag when celebrating the entity it actually represents.

The problem here, I think, is the dual meanings of "waving the flag". In the literal sense, waving a flag on national holidays (and flying a flag at any time) is a statement of support for the country. That is patriotism in it best form. In the figurative sense, the expression is used to convey the sense of chauvinism or even jingoism. A method to use mob mentality and poor arguments to motivate a group into actions which are often evil.

The two are quite different, and to object to one because of the other is illogical.

But back to my first post where I jokingly asked about flag burning.
Sometimes you see hords of people in the middle east burn an american flag. Does that hurt you? I really couldn't give a c**p.....I mean I just feel pitty for people that think we would be bothered by seeing a bunch of morons burn our flag.

Does that hurt me? Two hour lines to clear airport security. Erosion of the principles this country was founded on. Eventually having to pay for two unnecessary war. Preemptive security tests in the middle of shows I was recording. A religious backlash and the shift to political right.

Yeah -- not because they are burning the flag but because of the attitude, the hatred, which the gesture implies. Because of the truth that it will and does not end with gestures and demonstrations. It ends with ships damaged, buildings destroyed and many people dead. Some in the actions and more in the reactions.

So, yes, in a world that is 90 minutes around, the burning of anyone's flag by anyone else is hurting me.

--Pete

[kandrathe]

The problem here, I think, is the dual meanings of "waving the flag". In the literal sense, waving a flag on national holidays (and flying a flag at any time) is a statement of support for the country. That is patriotism in it best form. In the figurative sense, the expression is used to convey the sense of chauvinism or even jingoism. A method to use mob mentality and poor arguments to motivate a group into actions which are often evil.

I agree. I think this is an interesting difference between the US and Europe. In the US, there has been no recent "war" on our continent due to excessive nationalism. Our only non-domestic adversaries on the continent were native Americans, where the propaganda was entirely one sided, and the battles were remote on the frontier. Horrible stories were published about native atrocities but US Army and settler atrocities were white washed, and basically all the tribes were painted as "terrorists" with the same pejorative brush. Only the war of 1812 was a *real* threat to our freedom. Our old foes, the British empire, returned to attempt to return us as subjects of the crown. If it weren't for our pirate hero, Jean Lafitte, it probably would have been so.

Whereas, Europe fought through a larger part of their history due to various power hungry nobles and madmen fighting because of overt nationalism. I can understand why a European would meet "flag waving" as equivalent to a return to the mentality of a bygone era of moronic internecine conflict.

Much like protesters carrying signs with symbols, such as a peace symbol, would be the way that most Americans would view flag waving at parades, especially on the fourth of July. It is viewed more as a statement of support for the principles of freedom and liberty, rather than a statement of superiority of the US over other nations. It is a recognition of unity, in a republic of states, rather than of individual regional loyalties, or loyalties to the nations from which we were formerly citizens. I doubt it is ever viewed by most citizens in the US as a battle flag.

So, when I see a US flag being burned, I wonder if those people are against the notions of democracy, freedom, liberty, and human rights. Or, are they just angry with the policies of the US government? I assume the later.

[eppie]

I agree. I think this is an interesting difference between the US and Europe. ........ I assume the later.

Thanks Kandrathe; this might be an accurate description.

[LavCat]

Only the war of 1812 was a *real* threat to our freedom. Our old foes, the British empire, returned to attempt to return us as subjects of the crown. If it weren't for our pirate hero, Jean Lafitte, it probably would have been so.

Battle of New Orleans was fought after the peace treaty had been signed. If it were not for the support of Lafitte, it is true the British might have won the battle, but the primary effect on U.S. history may then have been that Jackson would never have become president.

All this is supposition. What is not supposition is that Lafitte was a great pirate and not much of a hero. After all, we sent the Enterprise against him. Furthermore, he flew the flag of Cartagena.

[kandrathe]

Only the war of 1812 was a *real* threat to our freedom. Our old foes, the British empire, returned to attempt to return us as subjects of the crown. If it weren't for our pirate hero, Jean Lafitte, it probably would have been so.

Battle of New Orleans was fought after the peace treaty had been signed. If it were not for the support of Lafitte, it is true the British might have won the battle, but the primary effect on U.S. history may then have been that Jackson would never have become president.

All this is supposition. What is not supposition is that Lafitte was a great pirate and not much of a hero. After all, we sent the Enterprise against him. Furthermore, he flew the flag of Cartagena.

The battle of New Orleans began on December 12, 1814, and ended on January 8, 1815. So, yes, a peace agreement was in the works, but communications being what they were then, it was hardly settled. Had the British won at New Orleans, whatever settlement between the two would have vastly changed the character and territory of the USA.

From Wikipedia, "On December 24, 1814, diplomats from the two countries, meeting in Ghent, United Kingdom of the Netherlands (now in Belgium), signed the Treaty of Ghent. The treaty was ratified by the British three days later on December 27[115][116][117] and by the U.S. on February 16, 1815. The ratified British copy of the treaty arrived in Washington on February 17 and the ratified treaty copies were exchanged the same day, thus officially ending the war. The terms stated upon ratification that fighting between the United States and Britain would cease, all conquered territory was to be returned to the prewar claimant, the Americans were to gain fishing rights in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence, and that the United States and Britain agreed to recognize the prewar boundary between Canada and the United States."