[split] Stormrage Lurker Guild Discussion - Formerly known as Cat Beta

[LavCat]

The system you're concerned with has nothing to do with Blizzard and how they make items and everything to do with how PEOPLE run guilds. Lurkers on Stormrage have never recruited but if we were to do so there would be an application process and discussions with the prospective member to assess just how well they know their class and role. THEN gearing would be looked at along with a trial run to see how well they perform and fit in with the Guild.

Exactly what a Lurkers guild should not be like, in my opinion. But I know my view has long been in the minority.

[Tal]

The system you're concerned with has nothing to do with Blizzard and how they make items and everything to do with how PEOPLE run guilds. Lurkers on Stormrage have never recruited but if we were to do so there would be an application process and discussions with the prospective member to assess just how well they know their class and role. THEN gearing would be looked at along with a trial run to see how well they perform and fit in with the Guild.

Exactly what a Lurkers guild should not be like, in my opinion. But I know my view has long been in the minority.

Your opinion was welcome when you were a member of the Guild. I'd appreciate if you would stop sniping at how I do things every time I turn around.

[Mavfin]

[quote='LavCat' pid='177933' dateline='1279830239']

Your opinion was welcome when you were a member of the Guild. I'd appreciate if you would stop sniping at how I do things every time I turn around.

The forum and the guilds have been divorced for some time now, really. None of the admins or old admins have their mains in a Lurker guild anymore. Just alts, if any at all. <shrug>

[Tal]

The forum and the guilds have been divorced for some time now, really. None of the admins or old admins have their mains in a Lurker guild anymore. Just alts, if any at all. <shrug>

Anyone else wanna snipe? Feel free to form an orderly line.

No wait. I'm going to exercise a forum rule here - stay on topic. This thread is about the Cataclysm Beta and all it entails. The Stormrage Lurker Guild and how I run it can be discussed in it's own thread.

[Mavfin]

The forum and the guilds have been divorced for some time now, really. None of the admins or old admins have their mains in a Lurker guild anymore. Just alts, if any at all. <shrug>

Anyone else wanna snipe? Feel free to form an orderly line.

No wait. I'm going to exercise a forum rule here - stay on topic. This thread is about the Cataclysm Beta and all it entails. The Stormrage Lurker Guild and how I run it can be discussed in it's own thread.

Fair enough. Just remember that you put that out there in this thread. Otherwise, I'd have left it alone.

Good luck.

[TheDragoon]

Fair enough. Just remember that you put that out there in this thread. Otherwise, I'd have left it alone.

Because two wrongs make a right?

[Mavfin]

Fair enough. Just remember that you put that out there in this thread. Otherwise, I'd have left it alone.

Because two wrongs make a right?

If Tal can bring it up in a public forum, then so can I. I respected his wishes with my last post. So, that makes you the third wrong. Make up your mind.

My PM box is real close if you want to discuss it.

[TheDragoon]

My PM box is real close if you want to discuss it.

So is mine. So is Tal's. So why are you still posting? Oh, right, you apparently feel you have to get in the last word on everything.

Sorry, Bolty, I'll stop feeding the trolls now.

[RTM]

Awesome, another good discussion thread derailed by Mav! Thanks dude!

rated thread a 1

[Tal]

Off topic posts split off. Have at me.

[Frag]

Off topic posts split off. Have at me.

Ok!

So, I've played on four different servers seriously, been in... Basin - SR, Basin - Tich, Splinter Basin - Tich, Horrible Unnameable Guild - Tich, Lurkers - SR, Lurkers Terenas, Vanguard - Cairne and effectively Keepers of the Dusk - Terenas at times. I've seen a lot of guild leaders in action with direct and sustained contact in those guilds, and you rank #1 as far as I'm concerned Tal. It's not because you've always made the right decisions, or rarely made poor ones, but it's because of your maintaining of a vision and standards, even in the face of your friends. That quality is rare indeed and a very valuable trait in any leader. You've earned my utmost respect and have shown over and over why you were picked to lead the WoW faction of the Lounge, which incidentally is totally your own fault.

Regards,
~Frag

[Zyn]

Ok!

So, I've played on four different servers seriously, been in... Basin - SR, Basin - Tich, Splinter Basin - Tich, Horrible Unnameable Guild - Tich, Lurkers - SR, Lurkers Terenas, Vanguard - Cairne and effectively Keepers of the Dusk - Terenas at times. I've seen a lot of guild leaders in action with direct and sustained contact in those guilds, and you rank #1 as far as I'm concerned Tal. It's not because you've always made the right decisions, or rarely made poor ones, but it's because of your maintaining of a vision and standards, even in the face of your friends. That quality is rare indeed and a very valuable trait in any leader. You've earned my utmost respect and have shown over and over why you were picked to lead the WoW faction of the Lounge, which incidentally is totally your own fault.

Regards,
~Frag

When are you going to play over on SR again, btw? WTB Frag.

-Z

[Treesh]

The forum and the guilds have been divorced for some time now, really. None of the admins or old admins have their mains in a Lurker guild anymore. Just alts, if any at all. <shrug>

Since this has been split off, I'll respond now.

The forums and the guilds have been a little separated (I wouldn't call it a divorce), but NOT because of where the admins or old admins play. The forums are more than just the admins. You guys help keep things running smoothly, but if there weren't posters, you wouldn't have much to do and the forums really wouldn't exist and quite a few of the posters DO have mains and/or high alts in the Lurker guilds so. I don't have the numbers of active posters who do play in one of the guilds vs active posters who play but not in one of the guilds, but I'd be willing to guess it's a fairly good percentage who are in one of the guilds.

[shoju]

I guess I don't see the divorce. "Divorce" makes it sound like there wasn't an amicable seperation of people who left.

To my knowledge, (and I admit I could be wrong here) You (mav) are the only Admin (unless Lavcat is an admin and I didn't know it) that harbors negative feelings about leaving a Lurkers guild. The kicker is, you left when it seemed like the 'drama' was at a low, and there weren't any serious problems.

I'm guess I'm tired of seeing people get dumped on because of the way things went. It is absolutely ridiculous that there are such open shots being taken about this. This seems like a case where Lav said something that irritated Tal, and Mav chimed in where it wasn't

1.) wanted
2.) needed

Sorry if this post is out of place. It is just frustrating to see. I have never been a GM of a guild the size of either Lurkers guild, but I can tell you that I see the difficulties that it would present. Before you go sniping at people, or insinuating that there is some break between Lurker culture and the WoW guilds in a public forum, think about what might get dragged around. Is this really the avenue for such a discussion?

[--Pete]

Hi,

Off topic posts split off. Have at me.

I hate to see this bickering within a group of people who have so much more in common than they have differences. I guess it's human nature to stress the divisive issues and ignore the unifying ones.

I don't think there is any fault to be assigned to anyone. No one has gone out to insult or disrespect anyone else. Different people have different opinions, and the modern 'philosophy' is to polarize and demonize. I would have hoped that the Lurker ideal was a bit higher than that. Perhaps it is, and a few folk just lost track for a moment.

Perhaps what is happening is inevitable. I'm only familiar with one other case, AoH years ago when EQ (IIRC) came out. A feud started between those who felt the EQ AoH players (many of whom had never even seen the website) were the 'true' AoH and those who thought only the people who actually participated in the guild were the true AoH. When the dust settled, many of each, and some in the middle (myself included) were gone.

Perhaps it is inevitable, but I hope not. This site is more than a collection of people who play the same game. It is a collection of above average people who share gaming as a hobby, who take gaming seriously and are willing to take the time and trouble to analyzing and understanding the games they play. But above and beyond that, it is a site of people who are willing to discuss many topics, rationally and for the most part politely.

Perhaps it is the nature of the beast, perhaps it is a change in the people, but there was a time when you could spot a Lurker because s/he was doing strange things, trying strange tactics, and playing with strange builds, all out of curiosity. Now, there is no noticeable difference between a Lurker and any other player. That's not bad, that's not good, it's just changed. Some regret the change. I do. But the way others play has no bearing on how I play. And that seems to have been lost in the fury.

I will not venture a guess why Bolty started all this so long ago in D1 days. But I will say that it has always been a refuge from the inevitable bickering of guild fora. When the Lurkers guilds were set up during the WoW beta, I did not voice my objection because I thought they would have been temporary. Had I been around when the game went gold, I would have been worried about Lurker guilds, for the guilds and the site were overlapping entities, neither containing the other. And it was that precise situation which caused the problem long ago in AoH and is causing the same problem here.

I have no solution to offer other than tolerance for how others play and respect for those who were once (and may again be) your friends.

--Pete

[Treesh]

This site is more than a collection of people who play the same game. It is a collection of above average people who share gaming as a hobby, who take gaming seriously and are willing to take the time and trouble to analyzing and understanding the games they play. But above and beyond that, it is a site of people who are willing to discuss many topics, rationally and for the most part politely.

Perhaps it is the nature of the beast, perhaps it is a change in the people, but there was a time when you could spot a Lurker because s/he was doing strange things, trying strange tactics, and playing with strange builds, all out of curiosity. Now, there is no noticeable difference between a Lurker and any other player. That's not bad, that's not good, it's just changed. Some regret the change. I do. But the way others play has no bearing on how I play. And that seems to have been lost in the fury.

It's been a little while since I played on Terenas, but it was still the case over there when I was that we did do things differently, just to see. No one refused to take my then rather odd holy DPS priest on a run. In fact, I was even allowed to actually DPS on her rather than heal. =) We undermanned the dungeons (before BOAs came out, before we were overleveled/overgeared for that particular dungeon), used not exactly typical tanks (shaman tanks even after TBC came out, warlock pet tanks, hunter pet tanks, rogue tanks, hell I even priest tanked some runs), didn't use exploits, and basically just tried to see how much was possible to do in the game, even doing the min/max stuff with characters to see if the theoretical best and practical best matched up. All of those nitpicky things that makes a Lurker a lurker. There just weren't many write ups of it on the forums. This is why I said the guilds and the forums were separated rather than divorced. The ideals are still there, still being put into play, but in game rather than the forums.

Edit: And about the fighting over who the true lurkers would be, well, there was a bit of that when D2 was king too. If you weren't here for the D1 days and actively posting, you weren't a true lurker. And I hate to admit it, but I do kind of feel that way still. The LL has changed, its members have changed, hopefully some growth has occurred, but I still don't consider myself a true Lurker really. I agree with the gaming ideals that the site has always stood for, but I'm still not an actual Lurker because I don't sit down to write up my talent trees on my oddball chars, I didn't chronicle (in great detail) my skilless zon that I made so long ago. I'll talk about them to folks, try to give little tips about what I knew, but full, detailed reports always have bugged me. You have to put in every single little detail and I don't put that level of detail in my notes. That's what always annoyed me about the science labs. You have to keep track of -everything- to make sure it doesn't affect the results, to make sure someone can completely recreate your experiment. It's asking a level of perfection from me that I just can't do. Still got As on the labs, but it definitely showed me that, while I enjoy research and experimentation, I can't do the explanations and write-ups properly for other folks to see. It's the same about my games. I really dig into the ones I like, mention stuff in that I notice that doesn't follow the norm, but doing a full on write-up just doesn't happen.

[RTM]

Off topic posts split off. Have at me.

I seem to remember you having an unhealthy obsession with Jack-o-lanterns?

That's all I got, sorry.

[Zyn]

I had stayed away from this discussion for various reasons previously, however - I can say that I talk to Tal all day on AIM, I hang out with him on Skype when we're levelling alts or PvPing, or even if its just to have a good conversation while we're doing seperate things in game.

Through all of that time, Ive found him to be one of the most accepting, dedicated and patient people (Outside of 2v2 Arena against Priests - lolManaburn) Ive ever interacted with. The vigilance that he maintains over the Lurker-SR guild body as a whole in regards to maintaining an environment that is supportive of each other is something to be praised, not questioned or "sniped".

I can empathize with things in their current state being compared to how they "used to be" and having the difference upset people, because change is never easy to take lightly. I wasn't around back during the Diablo days (at least not on these boards) so I can only work off of what Ive experienced since early Vanilla WoW. That being said, I think he does a fantastic job, at the very least, with keeping an avenue open for Lurker members to have somewhere to play - be it with other Lurkers or otherwise.

I honestly couldn't imagine anyone else doing the job. When I listed to him openly contemplate and gather his thoughts over guild decisions over Skype, it reminds me why he was appointed to do what he is doing - and that job is mostly thankless, mind you. Sometimes I just wish everyone would cut the guy a break.

Anyhow, carry on.

-Z

[LochnarITB]

there was a time when you could spot a Lurker because s/he was doing strange things, trying strange tactics, and playing with strange builds, all out of curiosity.

Hmm, I wonder how a naked mage would do in WoW? Maybe that would be a legitimate reason to play frost.

[--Pete]

Hi,

The vigilance that he maintains over the Lurker-SR guild body as a whole in regards to maintaining an environment that is supportive of each other is something to be praised, not questioned or "sniped".

I completely agree. Sorry I didn't specifically mention that in my post. The point is that no one is at fault for this situation and no one could have prevented it. But, more importantly, if everybody dials it back a few notches, we might avoid self destruction.

--Pete

PS If you reply with another post containing the word "fuck", I will put you on my ignore list. And I will petition for you to be booted, if not from the guild, from the fora. If you can't be civil, be quiet.