Maastricht Treaty revisions needed?

[eppie]

I have no concept of what things cost outside of Denmark (aside from books and computer games, anyway), but triple sounds completely off the wall.

Denmark is very expensive.....but salaries are also very high. In general you keep a lot of money for yourself, and when you take that money abroad (holidays or buying stuff on the internet) you are quite happy.
A strong welfare state usually gives a stable and prosperous society, and therefor strong currency (this is a bit too generalized but I think I am quite close)

[Jester]

I have no concept of what things cost outside of Denmark (aside from books and computer games, anyway), but triple sounds completely off the wall.

That's because it is. Copenhagen is expensive, but it's not as expensive in absolute terms as New York, or even Los Angeles. Prices are triple of... Kuala Lumpur? Delhi?

Wage levels are high to compensate. Inequality is extremely low, so it's not a distributional problem. An hour of work buys about 3/4 of what it does in the US, after tax, but before you consider the value of everything you get for your tax dollars, including health care, education, and so on.

So, yes, Kandrathe is, for the millionth time, throwing out a massively exaggerated figure, which no doubt fits with his ideological caricature, but does not come even close to matching reality.

-Jester

[Jester]

Which is probably worse, right? All the same taxes, with none of the benefits.

You asked "where could they go," implying that their lack of options was serf-like. I pointed out that they have one of the most flexible passports in the world, enabling them to live or work under the tax regimes of over a dozen different countries, which is about as far from "bound to the land" as you get. But if they're really furious about taxes, surely migrants from high-education Denmark are a valuable commodity almost anywhere in the world, and migrating would be quite easy.

But don't let that stop you. Surely being able to live or work almost anywhere in the world is basically the same as being tied to a tiny plot of land in the middle of nowhere, right? Or if not, it's well within the bounds of "semi-".

So, no, there is not the same feudal land lord, per se., but the level of freedom and taxation is similiar, which is why I said semi-serf.

Because being a serf, except for the whole serf part, is being a semi-serf?

Not buying it.

Because the serf was required to work so many days of the week on the lords land, before he worked his own small parcel. Then, there was the Christmas goose.

Whereas the Dane works at whatever he or she wants, for however many hours they prefer, wherever they want, and only has to pay taxes to the government they voted for, that they could vote against if they pleased, and from whose country they could migrate if they so wanted?

How is that even slightly similar, except for the (silly, grossly exaggerated) idea that *all* taxes are pretty much identical to slavery, serfdom, or any of those other things I mentioned in post one?

You have to remember that here in the US, the revolution began when we tossed the tea into the harbor AFTER Britain removed the taxes from all the other products, and that tax was only 1%.

Strange how everyone seems to have completely forgotten that the important part of "no taxation without representation" wasn't the "taxation," but the "representation." In libertarian-land, representation is apparently worth crap all, with democracy not even worth mentioning, but a slightly higher tax rate? Holy hell, it's slavery! Everybody grab your muskets, the British are coming!

It is also worth pointing out that many of the more influential wealthy colonists making these high-falutin' objections were tea smugglers, who made good money off of *high* taxes, and who incited the mob only when the British *lowered* them.

But, your basic point holds: Yankees are bonkers when it comes to taxes.

-Jester

[Palpy]

The serfs seemed quite happy on the Saturday morning cartoons I watched. Papa serf was kinda a dictater though.


...sorry, I had to after seeing that word so many times.

[kandrathe]

That's because it is. Copenhagen is expensive, but it's not as expensive in absolute terms as New York, or even Los Angeles. Prices are triple of... Kuala Lumpur? Delhi?

Comparing Copenhagen to San Francisco, or NYC is hardly a fair comparison at all. Yes, there are places here where prices are triple the normal. I'm talking about a normal meal at a cafe, or a cup of coffee. I live in an average area, where things are normal. There are places where things are much cheaper, like in rural Alabama, but then you need to pay in other ways. Where is Doc? I miss his rural southern opinions.

So, yes, Kandrathe is, for the millionth time, throwing out a massively exaggerated figure, which no doubt fits with his ideological caricature, but does not come even close to matching reality.

At least a million. Why not go for billion?

1 gallon of milk costs me $1.65, in Denmark it would be $4.16. To fill up my 15 gallon gas tank costs about $41.25, in Denmark it would be $104.48. A loaf of bread is about $1, in Denmark it is $1.45 (Ja!, so not everything is triple ).

Source

[LavCat]

1 gallon of milk costs me $1.65, in Denmark it would be $4.16. To fill up my 15 gallon gas tank costs about $41.25, in Denmark it would be $104.48. A loaf of bread is about $1, in Denmark it is $1.45 (Ja!, so not everything is triple ).

Do you own a cow? I pay $4.79 per gallon for milk (on sale). Gas, I have no idea -- I have not been able to afford a vehicle since 1991, and even then the Jeep I had ran on diesel. I have not bought bread for about fifteen years.

[Jester]

Comparing Copenhagen to San Francisco, or NYC is hardly a fair comparison at all.

Uh... comparing the primate city of Denmark to the primate cities of the US? What exactly is the problem here? Should I be going out of my way to compare apples to oranges, maybe? Find the least expensive corner of the US, and compare it to the ritziest neigbourhood in Copenhagen, just to make it maximally unfair?

Yes, there are places here where prices are triple the normal. I'm talking about a normal meal at a cafe, or a cup of coffee. I live in an average area, where things are normal.

Okay, now we're into major pet peeve territory. NEW YORK IS NORMAL. Chicago is normal. Los Angeles, Dallas, Miami, San Francisco... these are all *totally normal places*. They do not exist on another planet. There is no "real America" located in an ambiguous juncture between Nevada and Kentucky where "normal" exists, for armchair sociologists like David Brooks to gush about. Urban is the majority, the median, the experience most people live.

1 gallon of milk costs me $1.65, in Denmark it would be $4.16.

Jeez. $1.65? Where do you live? A dairy farm? A discount store? I've never lived anywhere that you could get a gallon of milk for less than twice that.

Indeed, according to the department of agriculture, your price is about half what you pay in almost any US city. Even in the very cheapest cities, you pay at least $2 on average. The overall US average is almost exactly twice the number you cite. Numbers for the biggest and most expensive cities are barely cheaper than Denmark, if at all. So, I'm calling foul.

To fill up my 15 gallon gas tank costs about $41.25, in Denmark it would be $104.48. A loaf of bread is about $1, in Denmark it is $1.45 (Ja!, so not everything is triple ).

Indeed, it might be fairer to say "not anything is triple," since not a single thing you've pointed to actually is.

Even gas, which is no doubt much more expensive everywhere in Europe than in the US, costs a little more than double - $2.72 per gallon in the US, and just under $6 per gallon in Denmark, which is only 2.2 times the price. Gas is the limit, though - other commodities are much closer to par.

-Jester

[Taelas]

1 gallon of milk costs me $1.65, in Denmark it would be $4.16. To fill up my 15 gallon gas tank costs about $41.25, in Denmark it would be $104.48. A loaf of bread is about $1, in Denmark it is $1.45 (Ja!, so not everything is triple ).

Source

We use liters, not gallons. Gas has always been expensive, though.

[kandrathe]

We use liters, not gallons. Gas has always been expensive, though.

Yeah, how annoying is that? I had to convert from liters to gallons, Kg to Lb, AND from DKK to $.

[Kevin]

1 gallon of milk costs me $1.65, in Denmark it would be $4.16. To fill up my 15 gallon gas tank costs about $41.25, in Denmark it would be $104.48. A loaf of bread is about $1, in Denmark it is $1.45 (Ja!, so not everything is triple ).

Good lord, $1.65 a gallon for milk? I've occasionally gotten a gallon for under $3 over the last year, usually at Wal-Mart or Aldi. My last gallon from Wal-Mart was $3.12, it was $3.43 at Kroger. I haven't been to Aldi in about a month, but it was $3.02 there.

It's tough to say, but I have to go back to about 2006 to remember milk under $2. My parents live in WI I was there for Memorial day weekend and got a gallon for $2.87. In WI. America's Dairyland (though I'm aware that California does produce more milk now).

Nothing else you list there is 3 times. I'd also question your prices for other items too. I can get a loaf of bread for right around $1, but it's not good bread. You want something with a brand name on it? You are paying over $1.50 a loaf most places (and I've been in grocery stores in MO, WI, and ND in the last week).

Have you grocery shopped in the last two years or has someone else been doing it for you?

The gas price is the only thing you listed that seems remotely close to what I've seen recently and I live in an area that is still considered low for cost of living in this country. And of course gas prices are higher in most of Europe and have been for decades for other reasons.

[swirly]

There is no "real America" located in an ambiguous juncture between Nevada and Kentucky where "normal" exists

There is a Normal, Il and a Normal, ND. Both of these are between Nevada and Kentucky. If on the other hand, you are looking for Real, America. There is a Real in Texas...which is of course in America. : ) Though I suppose these being real places would make them non-ambiguous.

[kandrathe]

There is a Normal, Il and a Normal, ND. Both of these are between Nevada and Kentucky. If on the other hand, you are looking for Real, America. There is a Real in Texas...which is of course in America. : ) Though I suppose these being real places would make them non-ambiguous.

I'm closer to Savage or Nowthen. Not so close to Climax, Fertile, Nimrod, or Embarass.

[kandrathe]

Have you grocery shopped in the last two years or has someone else been doing it for you?

I'm a tight wad. I do go to three different grocery stores during the month to get the best price, use coupons, and buy when things are on sale. Milk has been trending up. It hit $1.98 recently, off the low from winter of last year. There is a local bakery in Hopkins that sells great fresh baked bread. Three loaves for $1.75

---

Uh... comparing the primate city of Denmark to the primate cities of the US? What exactly is the problem here? Should I be going out of my way to compare apples to oranges, maybe? Find the least expensive corner of the US, and compare it to the ritziest neigbourhood in Copenhagen, just to make it maximally unfair?

It's unfair. NYC is over 18 million people. The Copenhagen metropolitan area is at most, 2 million. The metropolitan area where I live is 3.5 million. NYC is logistically hard to supply, and it is hard to get the massive amounts of food to it. If NYC were a hub, like Chicago geographically, then its prices would be nearer to Chicago prices, which are nearer to the prices where I live. I can afford Chicago which are maybe 50% higher than here due to demand, but NYC is one of the most expensive places to live on the planet. I can't afford Venice, Italy either. Mostly, the economies of these hard to supply areas are unique and their shortages are unique. Much like the prices of products in Alaska, where most everything has to be flown in.

[Jester]

I'm a tight wad. I do go to three different grocery stores during the month to get the best price, use coupons, and buy when things are on sale. Milk has been trending up. It hit $1.98 recently, off the low from winter of last year. There is a local bakery in Hopkins that sells great fresh baked bread. Three loaves for $1.75

You do understand why it's apples and oranges to compare prices you can find coupon clipping, bargain hunting, and generally being a "tight wad" in a relatively cheap area, with listed retail averages for Denmark, right? How that alone would give you a distorted picture of the price differences?

It's unfair. NYC is over 18 million people. The Copenhagen metropolitan area is at most, 2 million.

Not really. We're talking about how expensive it is to live in the US vs. in Denmark. You can't just suddenly forget that about one in fourteen people in the US lives in New York, as though somehow that's grossly atypical. If there is no equivalent in Denmark, that's fine, because no Danes have to pay the equivalent prices, making it cheaper to live there - which is the whole point! The price level is not shockingly different from LA, or Miami, or San Francisco, or a half-dozen other gigantic cities in the US - and combined, they make up a huge slice of the population..

I'm happy comparing national averages, to get a fair all-around picture. My first link deals in those, IIRC. But that means you have to stop cherry picking your prices - which also means that the price level in Denmark is slightly, but not massively, higher than in the US, and that it comes nowhere near double, let alone triple, except for a few heavily taxed commodities like gas.

-Jester

[kandrathe]

You do understand why it's apples and oranges to compare prices you can find coupon clipping, bargain hunting, and generally being a "tight wad" in a relatively cheap area, with listed retail averages for Denmark, right? How that alone would give you a distorted picture of the price differences?

Well, sure. I'm showing the lowest price I could pay. I know boutique grocery stores where I could buy the same quality product for a much higher price, and they bag them and carry them to the car as well. I'm sure the prices I quoted are the typical price. Perhaps its because I've done some projects for grocery corporations, but they count on people using coupons and jack up the prices accordingly. People who don't use coupons are automatically adding 10% or so to the cost of their products.

Not really. We're talking about how expensive it is to live in the US vs. in Denmark. You can't just suddenly forget that about one in fourteen people in the US lives in New York, as though somehow that's grossly atypical. If there is no equivalent in Denmark, that's fine, because no Danes have to pay the equivalent prices, making it cheaper to live there - which is the whole point! The price level is not shockingly different from LA, or Miami, or San Francisco, or a half-dozen other gigantic cities in the US - and combined, they make up a huge slice of the population.

Denmark is more like Wisconsin. So why compare it to New York? It seems Europe in general has "States" whose prices compare to the most expensive place in the most expensive state to live in. Too bad for New Yorkers.

I'm happy comparing national averages, to get a fair all-around picture. My first link deals in those, IIRC. But that means you have to stop cherry picking your prices - which also means that the price level in Denmark is slightly, but not massively, higher than in the US, and that it comes nowhere near double, let alone triple, except for a few heavily taxed commodities like gas.

The site you linked to compared such important commodities as Ipods. Oh, boy. That is a product that would maintain a consistent price across borders. Same with any electronics. Look at the price of coffee. Coffee too is almost equal. The advantage we have living here is that we're close to agricultural, forest, the Alaska pipeline, great lakes shipping, Mississippi barge traffic, huge airports and a large refinery.

[Jester]

Denmark is more like Wisconsin. So why compare it to New York? It seems Europe in general has "States" whose prices compare to the most expensive place in the most expensive state to live in. Too bad for New Yorkers.

Hm. Why compare Denmark with the whole US, rather than just Wisconsin? Why just Denmark, and not the entirety of Europe? Good question. If I may cast our memories back to yesterday, you wrote:

The costs of most everything in Denmark are about triple what they are here in the US.

Did you perhaps mean to emphasize "here in the US" rather than "here in the US"? If so, that was not even slightly obvious.

The site you linked to compared such important commodities as Ipods. Oh, boy. That is a product that would maintain a consistent price across borders. Same with any electronics. Look at the price of coffee. Coffee too is almost equal. The advantage we have living here is that we're close to agricultural, forest, the Alaska pipeline, great lakes shipping, Mississippi barge traffic, huge airports and a large refinery.

Listen to yourself. You're complaining that they're including things whose prices are equal. But that's the point! Those commodities cost the same in Denmark as in the US, approximately. That means, shockingly enough, that prices are not triple. Is your idea that Danes don't buy coffee? Or iPods? They also include things that are not equal - food, rent, fuel. You should include a representative, proportional mix of what people buy. That's what a price index is all about. Then, you take that price index, and compare it to a wage series, and shazam: real prices! And, lo and behold, that's what they do.

-Jester

[--Pete]

Hi,

I love this multi respond feature. The macramé of posts can get complex beyond all human comprehension.

---

The serfs seemed quite happy on the Saturday morning cartoons I watched. Papa serf was kinda a dictater though.

And how would you be if you had to wear burple all the time?

---

Where is Doc? I miss his rural southern opinions.

I fear Doc has probably left the building, and taken his opinions with him. May they serve him well, wherever he may be. (Has anyone heard more of him?)

. . . for the millionth time, . . .

At least a million. Why not go for billion?

I think the right number is a brazilian.

---

Uh... comparing the primate city of Denmark to the primate cities of the US? What exactly is the problem here?

That marsupials don't build cities?

NEW YORK IS NORMAL. Chicago is normal. Los Angeles, Dallas, Miami, San Francisco... these are all *totally normal places*.

I'll give you Chicago, Dallas, Miami, and maybe San Francisco (but not Berkley). But New York and Los Angeles "normal"? Pass me that pipe, whatever you're smoking must be good.

---

We use liters, not gallons. Gas has always been expensive, though.

Yeah, how annoying is that? I had to convert from liters to gallons, Kg to Lb, AND from DKK to $.

Why can't everyone use imperial units and dollars?

---

There is a Normal, Il and a Normal, ND. Both of these are between Nevada and Kentucky.

But I've never found an Effigy -- so just where *are* they burning all those people?

There is a Real in Texas...which is of course in America. : )

Isn't that the other way around? That's what all my Texan friends (OK, both of them) tell me.

---

I can't afford Venice, Italy either.

Get yourself a hat and a few annoying songs and you can live a good life from fleecing the German tourists. And the price of gas will never bother you again.

---

So, I've lost the thread, heck, the whole tapestry, of this conversation. Just what is it we're discussing?

--Pete

. . . merrily, merrily, merrily, life's a bacchanal.

[kandrathe]

Listen to yourself. You're complaining that they're including things whose prices are equal. But that's the point!

We don't buy an iPod every week. But, we do buy dairy products, bread, meat, and gasoline. If you look at look at popular COLA guides, you'll see that Denmark in general ranks very high with Copenhagen vying amoungst the top ten most expensive places to live in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mos..._employees

Where I live doesn't even rank when looking at high costs, but we do rank here; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cit..._of_living when you look at quality of life. It's really cheap to live here, and if you can put up with the cold, then there are real advantages.

I know that not everything in Denmark is double to triple in price, but my impression is that the things that matter are much, much higher by factors of 2 or 3.

For example, housing in Denmark - rental homes were between $4000 and $8000 per month. Here in the MSP Metro area - $1000 to $3000

[NuurAbSaal]

Hi,

Where is Doc? I miss his rural southern opinions.

I fear Doc has probably left the building, and taken his opinions with him. May they SERF him well, wherever he may be. (Has anyone heard more of him?)

--Pete

There, not only did I fix that glaring mistake, I also helped derail the thread. Where's my medal?!

/flee

take care
Tarabulus

[Jester]

We don't buy an iPod every week. But, we do buy dairy products, bread, meat, and gasoline.

No. But electronics are large purchases. People buy not just iPods, but equivalent things - cell phones, televisions, DVDs, computers, home appliances. So, they are a factor - specifically, they should be a factor weighted by the quantity people spend on them. And it's not just electronics, but other things with relatively equal prices. Like, say, coffee. I buy that every day, and I'm sure lots of Danes do as well. That's why you need a weighted index - which, funnily enough, we have.

If you look at look at popular COLA guides, you'll see that Denmark in general ranks very high with Copenhagen vying amoungst the top ten most expensive places to live in the world.

Correct. So? Nobody is disputing that Copenhagen is expensive. I'm disputing that it's *three times* as expensive, or even somewhere in that ballpark.

I know that not everything in Denmark is double to triple in price, but my impression is that the things that matter are much, much higher by factors of 2 or 3.

For example, housing in Denmark - rental homes were between $4000 and $8000 per month. Here in the MSP Metro area - $1000 to $3000

Well, at least we've made progress from "most everything" to "not everything", from "double to triple" rather than "triple", and now we're apparently talking about your neighbourhood, rather than the USA.

As for housing, I have absolutely no idea if you're comparing apples to apples here, or not. From what I read scanning a few sites, the cost of rental is maybe 90% of the US median. Forbes sez: "Housing and cost of living are both affordable, but aren't dramatically below national means." Okay, fine. Is Copenhagen housing 270% of the US median? I really doubt it, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise, but by something other than you just pulling numbers off the top of your head.

No doubt the standard of living in Minneapolis is enviable, though remember we are comparing it to one of the most liveable cities in the entire world. You get a hell of a lot of intangibles from living in Copenhagen - low crime, high equality, great public transport, etc...

-Jester