You gotta fight, for your right...

[kandrathe]

I guess the EU is making vacationing a human rights issue.

The European Union has declared travelling a human right, and is launching a scheme to subsidize vacations with taxpayers' dollars for those too poor to afford their own trips. Antonio Tajani, the European Union commissioner for enterprise and industry, proposed a strategy that could cost European taxpayers hundreds of millions of euros a year, The Times of London reports. "Travelling for tourism today is a right. The way we spend our holidays is a formidable indicator of our quality of life," Mr. Tajani told a group of ministers at The European Tourism Stakeholders Conference in Madrid on April 15. Mr. Tajani was appointed to his post by Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi.-- Ottowa Citizen

Next thing you know... They'll pass a law to make taking a vacation once per year mandatory or face tax fines.

[eppie]

This is a real southern European plan. They are already not paying there share to the EU, and now they want us to pay taxes for people to go on holiday. Which in its self is not a bad thing, but guess where all the people will go to? Italy of course (the fact that this guy was appointed by Berlusconi should ring a bell and should tell you that this is not just a nice social plan).

Suggesting that youth will go on a subsidized visit to watch abandoned power plants in Manchester is nothing more than a kick in the **** of common sense.

[Jim]

This is a real southern European plan. They are already not paying there share to the EU, and now they want us to pay taxes for people to go on holiday. Which in its self is not a bad thing, but guess where all the people will go to? Italy of course (the fact that this guy was appointed by Berlusconi should ring a bell and should tell you that this is not just a nice social plan).

Suggesting that youth will go on a subsidized visit to watch abandoned power plants in Manchester is nothing more than a kick in the **** of common sense.

Hi,

eppie where were you born & raised & where do you live now ? I ask because I recall that you are not from the US but I might be mistaken. I ask this quest so that I can better understand the above "Socialist" quote.

I was born & raised in New York, I'm retired & live in Arizona USA...I would love a free vacation paid for by Lurker Lounge Tax Payers who currently pay for my monthly $ocial $ecurity check.

Socialism is a political philosophy that encompasses various theories of economic organization which advocate either public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources.[1][2][3] A more comprehensive definition of socialism is an economic system that directly maximizes use-values as opposed to exchange-values and has transcended commodity production and wage labor, along with a corresponding set of social and economic relations, including the organization of economic institutions and method of resource allocation;[4] often implying a method of compensation based on individual merit, the amount of labor expended or individual contribution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

[kandrathe]

This is a real southern European plan. They are already not paying there share to the EU, and now they want us to pay taxes for people to go on holiday. Which in its self is not a bad thing, but guess where all the people will go to? Italy of course (the fact that this guy was appointed by Berlusconi should ring a bell and should tell you that this is not just a nice social plan).

Here in the US, there are some people in the middle politically who warn about embracing any action (however popular) in the extremes, because of the unintended consequence of justifying that same extreme for an opposite purpose. I'm thinking of the Patriot Act, which Bush and the Neo-cons claimed they needed to enable them to crack down on domestic terrorists, which is now being used for domestic spying on groups who have a political agenda contrary to the current regime. "Hoisted by your own petard" is what I'm thinking. There are many other examples, in the realm of sacrificing liberties in the name of stamping out some anecdotal evil (e.g. poverty), or promoting some popular good deed (e.g. health care). For example, hate speech laws, and how they restrict freedom of religion or freedom of speech. A current news item here in the US is where Franklin Graham, son of evangelist Billy Graham, was asked to speak at the Pentagon (on a National day of Prayer), but now that invitation has been rescinded because of his public stated opinion on Islam (he is against it (not the people mind you). A shocker). This is a chilling example of how our society now "forbids" interactions with people who have certain viewpoints or are associated with religion. I hope the Pentagon would instead choose Bernice King, and then let's see people stand up against the daughter of MLK being allowed to speak.

Suggesting that youth will go on a subsidized visit to watch abandoned power plants in Manchester is nothing more than a kick in the **** of common sense.

{sic}But, certainly the poor workers of Manchester have the right to enjoy the Italian Riviera, as much as the overweight capitalists from Frankfurt. When it comes to pleasure, shouldn't "each according to their abilities, each according to their needs" also apply?

[eppie]

Jim and Kandrathe,

I think you didn't understand my point. And the point of the article in the first place.

Let's all pretend this is some evil socialist scheme to take tax payers money and give it to lazy scum that doesn't want to work.
Funny that this is suggested by a guy appointed by Berlusconi (not the most socialist of leaders).

So please just look a little bit farther and see what this is really about. A shameless attempt to get more tourism income for Italy, paid by northern European countries.

(plans like this that honestly want to do something for poor people are usually not made by the southern European countries, but by socialist politicians from the north)

Jim, yes I am dutch, not american. The reason why I said that 'in principle' giving poor people a chance of going on holiday is that I for example have no problems to pay for kids that have poor parents (not the kids fault) to also see something of the world (probably making them better citizens as well). I however don't find this one of the most important things we need to fix right now.

[kandrathe]

I do agree with the your observation that this is a ploy by the corrupt to abuse the many tax payers in the EU for the benefit of a few. If that is what you meant. The mechanism is there to abuse the majority, regardless of the ideology of the people who abuse the system for their own gains. They are parasites draining the strength from your economy.

I think you also missed my deeper point. Don't you believe that in a way, this IS socialism run amok? Even though the perpetrators are not considered socialists, they are using the system in a way that it is used to justify every other act of theft. You and I agree that we don't want beggars starving to death on our door steps, but we disagree as to the means, or the "sharing of equality of misery" as Churchill put it. I'm saying that it is the philosophy of justifying taking from some to give to those who haven't earned it in the first place that allows this type of looting to occur. Here, in my State, I see the parasites sucking the host dry, or as a dry rot sapping the strength out of anything productive. What I hear from the socialists is that the host is strong enough to survive the parasites. Perhaps sometimes it is strong enough to carry all the dead weight, but eventually I think the burden will bring the whole thing crashing down. I see it in the destitution of Minnesota's iron miners, and the lack of a domestic steel industry, even though we are sitting on a mountain of cheap iron. Now, we are shipping most of our iron to China. Or, in municipalities abusing eminent domain to seize property away from legitimate owners who have invested everything to give it to land developers for politically justified betterment projects in the name of the public good, or in the passing of laws that are funded by all to pay for the needs (health care insurance) or whimsy(bridges to nowhere) of a few. I believe it is the cancer that has killed industry here in the US, and driven it away along with a significant portion of our employment.

[Jester]

I see it in the destitution of Minnesota's iron miners, and the lack of a domestic steel industry, even though we are sitting on a mountain of cheap iron. Now, we are shipping most of our iron to China.

Do you mean only raw iron ore? Because as a total importer of US iron and steel, Canada far outstrips China.

The US does not lack a domestic steel industry. Not even close. You produce something like 100 million metric tons of steel each year - about 7.5% of global production. That makes you the third largest steel producer in the world, after China and Japan.

If the iron miners of Minnesota are destitute, then I can only say it's not because the US steel industry no longer exists. For unemployment, I suspect you should probably look at the opposite factor: the US steel industry is now vastly more efficient in terms of labour, and so requires far fewer workers to operate. This has been true in steel plants everywhere.

Plus, if you want to encourage employment in Minnesota, you might want to encourage, rather than discourage, iron exports to China. The Chinese pay money like everyone else, and that keeps the local boys in the mining business.

-Jester

[eppie]

I think you also missed my deeper point. Don't you believe that in a way, this IS socialism run amok? Even though the perpetrators are not considered socialists, they are using the system in a way that it is used to justify every other act of theft.

I agree. Because indeed besides this guy that made the plan, people voted for this.

[Occhidiangela]

Here we go again, NOTA versus SOTA (North of the Alps versus South Of The Alps)

You might say this is Guelphs vs Ghibellines, chapter MCMCCLIII.

[kandrathe]

Here we go again, NOTA versus SOTA (North of the Alps versus South Of The Alps)

You might say this is Guelphs vs Ghibellines, chapter MCMCCLIII.

DR

Italy is a microcosm of what is wrong with the EU. The south is a criminal run enterprise and feeds on the productive north, and has no reason to ever change.

I happen to be in the middle of re-reading "Atlas Shrugged", and today I just happened to be reading Francisco's money speech.

Particularly this part struck me --

Then you will see the rise of the men of the double standard--the men who live by force, yet count on those who live by trade to create the value of their looted money--the men who are the hitchhikers of virtue. In a moral society, these are the criminals, and the statutes are written to protect you against them. But when a society establishes criminals-by-right and looters-by-law--men who use force to seize the wealth of disarmed victims--then money becomes its creators' avenger. Such looters believe it safe to rob defenseless men, once they've passed a law to disarm them. But their loot becomes the magnet for other looters, who get it from them as they got it. Then the race goes, not to the ablest at production, but to those most ruthless at brutality. When force is the standard, the murderer wins over the pickpocket. And then that society vanishes, in a spread of ruins and slaughter.

In general, I'm finding the book tragically ironic in the wake of current events from laws being passed to mine disasters and offshore oil wells erupting due to negligence.

[eppie]

DR

Italy is a microcosm of what is wrong with the EU. The south is a criminal run enterprise and feeds on the productive north, and has no reason to ever change.

[/quote]

That is what the north Italians say. For a foreigner there is not much difference to see between south and north. True the north is where all the industry is but in terms of corruption it is all way below European standards for us to notice the slight difference between south and north.

The 'reason' nothing changes is that corruption and organized crime are interwoven with the government.....MPs are all rich people with very shady backgrounds (except for a few maybe). Berlusconi is the big example for italians that have to fight for themselves and see that it is good to steal, lie, and have mafia-contacts (but he is not the only one).
Europe (and especially the christian parties) don't want to criticize because of party political interests.

Only thing that can happen is a greece-like scenario where the Italian government is forced to take care of business.....sadly they will need to pull open a whole can of new politicians, because 95 % is incompetent.

---

Here we go again, NOTA versus SOTA (North of the Alps versus South Of The Alps)

You might say this is Guelphs vs Ghibellines, chapter MCMCCLIII.

DR

But here we talk based on facts; the southern European countries spend to much and earn too little. Spain and Portugal need to be very careful with government spending....Greece already overstepped the line, and Italy might become next.
When discussing about expanding the EU, we (politicians and the people) have been focusing too much on e.g. Turkey's 'Islamishness', poor people in the former east block states etc., and too little on the countries that are already in there.
In Holland there is discussion about raising the age with which you can go with pension from 65 till 67 while in most southern countries people can go on full pension starting from 55 or so (depending on how many years they worked).

If we will not manage to control Greece's financial administration we will be heading for a severe financial crisis again.....might very well be a domino effect. So yes we need to put pressure on the countries below the alps.

[kandrathe]

The 'reason' nothing changes is that corruption and organized crime are interwoven with the government.....MPs are all rich people with very shady backgrounds (except for a few maybe). Berlusconi is the big example for Italians that have to fight for themselves and see that it is good to steal, lie, and have mafia-contacts (but he is not the only one).

Ah, well, hence my reference to Francisco's speech. When force rather than commerce is the medium of transferring wealth, then criminals and politicians become one and the same. It really doesn't matter that your money is robbed by an unjust law, or at the point of a gun. You are still poorer. Nor, that you die by starvation, or by being killed for your shoes. You are still dead.