Networking questions

[Jarulf]

I am currently trying to set up my home network but have some questions regarding the printers. Currently, the network will be as follow (or rather, will when it is all connected). Sorry of the terminology is not correct.

A router is connected to the Ethernet (?) connection in the wall (to the outside world). The router has wireless capabilities. 1 WAN port (I suppose that is for the wall) and 4 LAN ports.

To the router, a stationary computer is connected through wire. Should be 1 LAN port, right?

To the router a printer is also connected through Ethernet wire connection. Should be another LAN port right?

A laptop is connected wirelessly to the router.


The router thus has at least 2 more free ports for wire connection and I suppose for all practical purposes unlimited wireless connections.

The questions is now. Will the printer above function correctly and be accessible from all computers on the net? Or do one need to set up some print server for it? The idea is for it to be accessible from the laptop even if the stationary computer is not turned on. That should work, right?

We have two more printers that me might want to add to the network, preferably being able to access without having to go through a specific computer turned on, that is, not connect them directly to a computer. They both have only USB connections. What would be the way to do this? I have seen some wireless print servers with USB connectors but they seem to cost quite a bit. On top of that, they don't need to connect wireless although it would of course open up possibilities. What about "print servers", when are they needed? Always? What purpose do they have. Seems one need one for printers to connect to a network, but what about the printer I have that can be connected through an Ethernet connection, does it still require some print server on the net to function meaning I need to have a computer running anyway for it to work?

Any suggestions on how to set it up and what could be needed?

As a side question, can a wireless network function were different units uses different encryption methods? The routers supports WPA2, what if one unit, say a printer in some way, doesn't support it, can it handle both WPA2 and WPA (for example) at the same time?

Anything else to think about?

Somewhat new to all this networking....

[librarian]

Heiho,

The questions is now. Will the printer <with network interface> above function correctly and be accessible from all computers on the net? Or do one need to set up some print server for it? The idea is for it to be accessible from the laptop even if the stationary computer is not turned on. That should work, right?

assumed you have the appropriate printer driver installed on each computer there's nothing more required here.
If no driver is available for your OS check printer's documentation for its capabilities of supporting lingua franca of printers like PCL, but those with network interfaces usually do so.

We have two more printers that me might want to add to the network, preferably being able to ... not connect them directly to a computer. They both have only USB connections.

This most probably won't work, at least from my experience. Surely not without the mentioned Print Server with USB connectors. Cheaper built USB printers (those only providing USB connection) don't have inbuilt 'intelligence' to digest raw printing data from a computer, the computer has to translate it (via the driver) before sending it to the printer. You _could_ try to achieve some Y-USB cables to connect more than one computer to one printer, this may work if _always_ just one of the connected computers is powered on, but could do serious damage otherwise and is _way_ beyond specifications.

What about "print servers", when are they needed? Always? What purpose do they have. Seems one need one for printers to connect to a network, but what about the printer I have that can be connected through an Ethernet connection, does it still require some print server on the net to function meaning I need to have a computer running anyway for it to work?

A 'print server' as in 'some little box with blinky LEDs close to a printer' usually shares a printer with no inbuilt network interface to the entire network, that is it provides an IP and does the protocol stuff. A printer with a network interface of its own doesn't need it.
With a print server you still need an appropriate printer driver on each computer, since it doesn't do actual printing stuff, it just enables networking.

Of course a print server could also be a sole computer/printer combo with printer sharing enabled (which you don't want) or an entire server computer (or virtual machine) just to administrate printing data, but I think this is a bit through the roof here.

[--Pete]

Hi,

The router thus has at least 2 more free ports for wire connection and I suppose for all practical purposes unlimited wireless connections.

And you can always add an inexpensive hub to increase the number of wired connections. Although a hub means that all devices connected to it share the available bandwidth, that is usually not a problem in a home or small office environment unless you rely a lot on file servers to process large files like video. Of course, now that switches are almost as cheap as hubs, you might want to go that way.

The questions is now. Will the printer above function correctly and be accessible from all computers on the net? Or do one need to set up some print server for it? The idea is for it to be accessible from the laptop even if the stationary computer is not turned on. That should work, right?

Should work fine. All you should need to do is use the add printer wizard and follow the prompts. If your system is up to date, odds are good you can just use the drivers that are already bundled with Windows.

We have two more printers that me might want to add to the network, preferably being able to access without having to go through a specific computer turned on, that is, not connect them directly to a computer. They both have only USB connections. What would be the way to do this? I have seen some wireless print servers with USB connectors but they seem to cost quite a bit. On top of that, they don't need to connect wireless although it would of course open up possibilities.

To connect a printer directly to the local net, you will need some type of adapter (i.e., 'print server'). As you seem to have already figured out, this will either be a dedicated adapter or a computer to which the printers are connected and shared. We used to have two printers attached to an old computer which we just left on. That worked fairly well. After moving, with space at a premium, we got rid of the computer and replaced it with individual print servers from NetGear. This has also worked out fine. As you've pointed out, these dedicated print servers are a bit expensive, with the wireless vesion being more expensive.

What about "print servers", when are they needed? Always? What purpose do they have. Seems one need one for printers to connect to a network, but what about the printer I have that can be connected through an Ethernet connection, does it still require some print server on the net to function meaning I need to have a computer running anyway for it to work?

Every printer needs a print server to do things like keep print jobs qued. However, the print server can be integrated with the printer (as they are in printers that connect directly to the net), can be on the network adapter, or can run on the computer the printer is attached to. So, if you are using either network ready printers or a print adapter to connect a printer to the network, no additional print serve is needed for those printers.

Any suggestions on how to set it up and what could be needed?

You've pretty much figured out what you need in general. My latest experience is about two and a half years old, which means that a lot of my info is out of date. I've had good luck with LinkSys and with NetGear, so unless someone with more recent experience chimes in, I'd be tempted to go with that. Just how you want to set up your LAN depends to some extent to what you have in hand (an old computer can make a cheap print server and, if you stick a couple of big hard drives in it, it can also double for storage of backups.) Considering the cost of print adapters, you might be better off buying new printers that are LAN ready. Of course, if you have a high quality printer, then the adapters might be the cheaper way to go. These are decisions only you can make.

As a side question, can a wireless network function were different units uses different encryption methods? The routers supports WPA2, what if one unit, say a printer in some way, doesn't support it, can it handle both WPA2 and WPA (for example) at the same time?

Not in the gear available a couple of years ago, which caused me some headaches until I figured out what configuration was permissible to all the devices on the LAN. But that might have changed since. Also, firmware updates occasionally add capabilities, so that the restrictions on a device out of the box might be eventually eliminated. Other than spending some time on manufacturer's web sites, asking questions on the forums at Tom's Hardware is the best way I know of to get good info.

Good luck,

--Pete

[Flymo]

The questions is now. Will the printer above function correctly and be accessible from all computers on the net? Or do one need to set up some print server for it? The idea is for it to be accessible from the laptop even if the stationary computer is not turned on. That should work, right?

As your printer has an Ethernet connection it must have a network card, and so you should not need to buy a print server.

[kandrathe]

If you want to add more printers later you can also get a device like JetDirect EW2400 which handles wired or wireless printing and acts as your dedicated external print server on your network.

[yangman]

As far as the printer with network capabilities is concerned, most of what's needed has already been said. However, one other thing to keep in mind is that depending on the printer, you will need to ensure that it has a static IP on LAN, so that its address will stay constant across network downtimes.

Unless your printer is of the variety that actually has a built-in print server that automatically configures itself as a Shared Windows Printer on your network, you will need to go to each machine that needs to use that printer and configure them to ask for the printer at the proper IP address. Consult your printer's manual on how to do this.


As for your USB-only printers, again, a dedicated print server is required. Personally, I have a dedicated Linux server which handles all the printer sharing, as well as multimedia storing. I current have two printers (soon to be two printers and a scanner, as soon as I get around to it) shared in a network for 5 different machines, each running a different version of Windows, OS X, and Linux.

[Jarulf]

Thanks for all the replies. I now understand tghe differences between the "USB printers" and my "network printer". Didn't occur to me that it could allready have the print server built in and the simplicity of the USB printers.

I looked at the box of my network printer (I recently got a new of those "hire through work computer deals and I just checked a printer in a decent price range) and it indeed says "printer for your office network, showing some symbols for networking and so on. So it seems indeed it should be a fully functional network printer with all needed according to your replies above. It is some HP ink colour printer, don't recall the number. I will keep the HP black and white laser printer directly connected to the static computer and we will see what to do with the final third printer, it is a multifunction scanner, printer with great photoprinting abilities, printing all the way out to the margin and so on on. Probably place it for connection to either of the computers through wire somewere in the office. All printers have their uses at times I guess so we will keep all. As for finding place to put them...... oh well.

Thanks everyone for the isight on networking and printers.

[HowGozit]

Jarulf,

Just a little more to add.

When you attach a printer to your network, WEP/WPA/WPA2 is irrelevant. The encryption is for wireless only - it doesn't apply to wired connections.

You need a static address for each printer. This will either be in the printer itself (it has an inbuilt network card) or in something that translates parallel or USB connections to a network card (HP Jetdirect is one such device, others are made by Dlink or Linksys).

Printer servers - not needed in the strict definition of such things. In a big network - such as the ones I administer - you have one server with all the printers defined to it. The drivers are on the server and the PC's all interact with this server. This handles all the print spooling and ordering on behalf of the rest of the network. Big bucks and a lot of work to administer. Not a problem with 300+ nodes - painful and unneeded with a small home network.

In a home network, each computer will handle its own spooling. You define the printer on the PC using Windows (or Linux or MacOS) and point the port to the network address. There may be a special port (for HP it is xxx.yyy.www.zzz:9100 - or 9101 or 9102 if it has 3 ports). Check the printer networking documentation. HP stuff is mainly autodetected by Windows XP or 2000 or later. Normally, a printer shows itself as busy while a computer is printing to it, so other computers will wait until the first print job is finished. Really big print jobs may be an issue - if someone is printing something like a thesis........

I have no trouble on my home 5-7 node network with a combination of Windows XP, MacOS 10.4 and Linux. Everyone prints to one printer and there is no confusion. The PC's track the state of the printer fine.

Really cheap printer that rely on Windows to format the print job aren't networkable easily. You may get away with using them - but I wouldn't try it.. More capable ones that have drivers available on many OS's should be fine, as long as you have a USB to ethernet capability.

HowGozit

[Jarulf]

Again, thanks for the input.

Just a small update and followup question. It all works well, the printer, the stationary computer and the laptop (although we had the not so uncommon problem of forgetting to turn on the switch ont the computer case to actually start the radion unit, making it not be able to connect at all or find any net (there are a total of 6 other nets findable, some even totally unprotected)). So everything is fine. The two extra printers (USB ones) we can connect to the computers at need.

The only "problem" I have found so far is that everytime I make a change on the router settings by connecting to it (I think I actually have to change a seting so that it updates), my computers setting for loging in to my account automatically gets reset and I and up with the login screen to select account when I restart the computer. Quite annoying. I first blamed HP for it when installing the network printer but turns out they can't be blamed for that, although I am up in fumes over a LONG list of other stupidities by HP trying to just install the drivers for the printer. Oh well, that is another story.


A small follow up, is there any general rule for shortest passwords one should pick? I mean, one can pick anything from 8 to 63 characters or something, but is there some recommended minimum? Does it really matter much? This applies to both the wirless net itself and the admin account on the router (which you actually have to type in when you connect and don't want 63 random characters to type). Yes I know I can have WIndows or the browser remember it, but don't want that. Is 10 character passwords just stupid (yes, they are somwhat random with both numbers and small and large letters although actually memorable).

I understand the password for the wireless network is for actually connecting to it, right, it has nothing to do with the encryption, right?


Now, back to cleaning my computer of all stuff that likes to run in the background, the stuff HP messed up my computer with and trying to figure out how to connect and configure my loudspeakers, gee, how can something so simple actually be so complicated?

[kandrathe]

A small follow up, is there any general rule for shortest passwords one should pick? I mean, one can pick anything from 8 to 63 characters or something, but is there some recommended minimum? Does it really matter much? This applies to both the wireless net itself and the admin account on the router (which you actually have to type in when you connect and don't want 63 random characters to type). Yes I know I can have Windows or the browser remember it, but don't want that. Is 10 character passwords just stupid (yes, they are somewhat random with both numbers and small and large letters although actually memorable).

If those devices are directly accessible to the internet, then you want strong passwords. If the device does not prevent a brute force attack, for example, by locking out the account for 10 minutes after 3 failed sign on attempts, then you want very, very strong passwords.

For routers and switches I typically use all 63 characters randomly generated and store them in a password safe (freeware ones like http://passwordsafe.sourceforge.net/ are fine). For your wireless access point, if the password merely grants access to the wireless network using a strong password is fine, but if it allows for the configuration of the WAP and is accessible to the internet, use an appropriately stronger one. A pass phrase is the easiest to remember, and after typing it enough you will remember it. So for example I would start with something like; "dead men tell no tales" then make it stronger by introducing special characters and some upper case letters, such as "d3Ad_mEn-te77_0_tA1es"

Test it here...
Microsoft Password Checker

For many places I manage I use a Radius Server.

[HowGozit]

Again, thanks for the input.

Just a small update and followup question. It all works well, the printer, the stationary computer and the laptop (although we had the not so uncommon problem of forgetting to turn on the switch ont the computer case to actually start the radion unit, making it not be able to connect at all or find any net (there are a total of 6 other nets findable, some even totally unprotected)). So everything is fine. The two extra printers (USB ones) we can connect to the computers at need.

A small follow up, is there any general rule for shortest passwords one should pick? I mean, one can pick anything from 8 to 63 characters or something, but is there some recommended minimum? Does it really matter much? This applies to both the wirless net itself and the admin account on the router (which you actually have to type in when you connect and don't want 63 random characters to type). Yes I know I can have WIndows or the browser remember it, but don't want that. Is 10 character passwords just stupid (yes, they are somwhat random with both numbers and small and large letters although actually memorable).

I understand the password for the wireless network is for actually connecting to it, right, it has nothing to do with the encryption, right?
Now, back to cleaning my computer of all stuff that likes to run in the background, the stuff HP messed up my computer with and trying to figure out how to connect and configure my loudspeakers, gee, how can something so simple actually be so complicated?

Jarulf,

The wireless password is the encryption key. It bases the encryption off that. Use a passphrase as suggested by Kandrathe. Use a long random hex password if you use WEP (if you can - avoid WEP, it is easily cracked).

The admin password for the router should be fairly difficult to guess. Otherwise you may find that it kinda turns into someone else's router.

Not sure why you need to re login. Windows XP for one is real good at detecting a known network and remembering the key. Remember to go into wireless settings->Advanced and select infrastructure access points only and non-preferred networks (going on memory here). XP works better on wireless with those settings.

Yes - it is complicated, isn't it. Keeps me in a nice living.... :rolleyes:

HowGozit

[Jarulf]

Not sure why you need to re login. Windows XP for one is real good at detecting a known network and remembering the key. Remember to go into wireless settings->Advanced and select infrastructure access points only and non-preferred networks (going on memory here). XP works better on wireless with those settings.

Perhaps I was unclear regarding the login. It is the login of my account in Windows that I enabled whenever I change a seting on the router. It is strange. I have set my Windows computer to automatically login to my account (I use the tweakui powertoys for that setting. Whenever I have changed some setting on the router (by loging in to it and making a change, and this computer is connected by wire to the router) I will, the next time I start Windows be presented with the screen to pick the account I want to log into in Windows. I really don't see why or what is going on.

As for the wireless, I use WPA (plus WPA2, it has a setting for handle both at the same time or one or the other) since the laptop can't handle WPA2 (which of course makes the +WPA2 quite pointless but hey, if I want to connect something that handle WPA2, at least I don't have to change the setting.