Coming Soon: Changes for mages

[Xame]

EDIT: Skandranon, as an aside, what would you say is the "optimal" raid DPS build for a mage post-2.3.2? Something like 2/48/11?

I would go more with 2/48/11. With only 11pts, you really cannot make a good frostbolt and Arcane Blast is still a nice spell as long as you don't spam it (it still might be my opener if a unlucky scorch crit would pull aggro from a tank that caught an opening miss. Wiping a raid is always a bad idea). The 3 pts in Ice Shards could equally end up in Frost Bite or Permafrost. With the mage rarely casting frostbolt a chill effect won't ever really happen. Thus Ice Shards might be the best for a Frost Nova/Ice Lance combo. But in my days as a frost mage Permafrost with rank 1 frostbolt/Cone really helps with the timing on kiting (2x elite kiting is great practice to keep skills sharp). Also Frost Bite might be interesting with Ice Armor in PvP. In summary, you have 5 junk points and I believe utility, even if it is very very limited, might be more interesting. Otherwise you have my new build.

As to your comment, shouldn't Ice Veins have gone into the Arcane tree. Yes!! But so should some "real" defense. It would have been better to boost Arcane Fortitude (~250 armor -> 2500 armor), Magic Attunement (increased effect for dots/hots) and Prismatic Cloak (increase 2%/pt -> 4%) and lower them in the Arcane tree so Fire/Frost could pick them up for utility (<11pt talents). This would give Arcane mages the power boost from Ice Veins and Arcane/Fire/Frost a lot more defense. Of course this is much more risky since you boost the defense of frost mages more, but I believe it would be more in keeping with the flavor of the mage talent trees. The iceblock trainable is a cheap way out without much thought. But this is all pie in the sky and I'm sure it won't play well with what Blizzard has for 51pt talents.

A month after the patch releases people will just assume mages had Ice Block since the dawn of the game (all toons you don't understand are 41/41/41 :wacko:) so we will adjust the spreadsheets and move on. Other classes have had more dynamic game changes then this (hunters anyone? skill -> expertise for melee classes, +healing gear == damage). To some degree these changes make the game fun since what was understood before requires relearning. With enough shuffling over time, mages might be back on top of the dps charts.

[Taelas]

I would go more with 2/48/11. With only 11pts, you really cannot make a good frostbolt and Arcane Blast is still a nice spell as long as you don't spam it (it still might be my opener if a unlucky scorch crit would pull aggro from a tank that caught an opening miss. Wiping a raid is always a bad idea). The 3 pts in Ice Shards could equally end up in Frost Bite or Permafrost. With the mage rarely casting frostbolt a chill effect won't ever really happen. Thus Ice Shards might be the best for a Frost Nova/Ice Lance combo. But in my days as a frost mage Permafrost with rank 1 frostbolt/Cone really helps with the timing on kiting (2x elite kiting is great practice to keep skills sharp). Also Frost Bite might be interesting with Ice Armor in PvP. In summary, you have 5 junk points and I believe utility, even if it is very very limited, might be more interesting. Otherwise you have my new build.

5 points in Imp Frostbolt is utility in my mind -- 1 sec R1 Frostbolts for kiting, yes, please!

Though I see the point about Permafrost... 2/3 Permafrost might be better than 2/2 Frost Nova.

[Skandranon]

I would go more with 2/48/11. With only 11pts, you really cannot make a good frostbolt and Arcane Blast is still a nice spell as long as you don't spam it (it still might be my opener if a unlucky scorch crit would pull aggro from a tank that caught an opening miss. Wiping a raid is always a bad idea). The 3 pts in Ice Shards could equally end up in Frost Bite or Permafrost. With the mage rarely casting frostbolt a chill effect won't ever really happen. Thus Ice Shards might be the best for a Frost Nova/Ice Lance combo. But in my days as a frost mage Permafrost with rank 1 frostbolt/Cone really helps with the timing on kiting (2x elite kiting is great practice to keep skills sharp). Also Frost Bite might be interesting with Ice Armor in PvP. In summary, you have 5 junk points and I believe utility, even if it is very very limited, might be more interesting. Otherwise you have my new build.

Well, Arcane Blast is a pretty terrible spell without 2-piece Tier 5, and only mediocre with, and where openers are concerned, I find it's only a concern in 5-mans. In raids, the first target to receive DPS should always get a misdirection on the pull to set them with a solid 3k+ aggro. Similarly, I never cast Ice Armor in raids, there's no need for frost resistance, and only very limited use for frost nova.

Now I'm not saying there's a ton of use for Frostbolt, either, but the two uses do include raid encounters. At a TK/SSC level, Al'ar is fire immune, and Arcane Blast just isn't going to do as something you use for the whole fight, even with 2t5. The same logic applies to phase 2 of the Illidan encounter in T6 content. If I'm going to have to use frostbolt (and I really wouldn't be casting anything else in those fights; okay, maybe I'd build a little AB cycle for fun but I'd still need Frostbolt as part of it) I might as well use these points, which I'm spending in Frost anyway, to make it better.

[Xame]

Well, Arcane Blast is a pretty terrible spell without 2-piece Tier 5, and only mediocre with,

Most fire mages pre-T6 are either in Tailor crafted which is +arcane and not frost and/or 2/T5 with set bonus. Raw spells, I would agree with you completely. But cookie cutter gearing forces other choices.

and where openers are concerned, I find it's only a concern in 5-mans. In raids, the first target to receive DPS should always get a misdirection on the pull to set them with a solid 3k+ aggro. Similarly,

Misdirection is the next 3 sources of hunter damage are moved to the tank. I play the odds here and race with the hunter+tank on damage using AB even as the tank is running in to engage the boss. The -40% to threat means I should never win this race. I would never dare to try this with fire or frost because of misses on their part and crits on mine. This move/trick is one of the few mage advantages in TBC.

I never cast Ice Armor in raids, there's no need for frost resistance, and only very limited use for frost nova.

As I said, all junk points. I PvP a lot and utility to me is PvP. Lots of frost mages here and enhancement shaman that have frost shock not on diminishing return. 20% reflect is huge fun. 5pts in improved frostbolt is also utility and has some limited raiding use as you point out. All I wanted to do in my post was point out more choices with the junk points since it will be the only differences between us new cookie cutter PvE fire mages. As we both agree, the differences here are very small and how much utility is in the eye of the individual mage's play style.

[Skandranon]

Misdirection is the next 3 sources of hunter damage are moved to the tank. I play the odds here and race with the hunter+tank on damage using AB even as the tank is running in to engage the boss. The -40% to threat means I should never win this race. I would never dare to try this with fire or frost because of misses on their part and crits on mine. This move/trick is one of the few mage advantages in TBC.

Frankly, I'm not sure that the 1500 or so damage you get from an Arcane Blast matters at all in terms of DPS on a boss with 4 million HP. Or rather, that it outweighs the half a fireball you gain from starting your scorch stack earlier. Misdirection is...pretty strong, I really don't see how it's possible for a salv'ed mage to pull aggro from a MD'ed tank with just scorch. Even assuming your hunter doesn't crit anything, that's 3000 to 4500 threat depending on gear level, and scorch simply isn't going to overcome that even after stacking Fire Vulnerability to full.

Obviously this is different in 5-mans, as I said, where you may not have salv, and where the hunter may not be hit-capped, and so on, but in a raid all of the elements are present, including most probably another hunter with Misdirection, and so threat on a single target basically stops being an issue for bosses that don't deaggro regularly.

As I said, all junk points. I PvP a lot and utility to me is PvP. Lots of frost mages here and enhancement shaman that have frost shock not on diminishing return. 20% reflect is huge fun. 5pts in improved frostbolt is also utility and has some limited raiding use as you point out. All I wanted to do in my post was point out more choices with the junk points since it will be the only differences between us new cookie cutter PvE fire mages. As we both agree, the differences here are very small and how much utility is in the eye of the individual mage's play style.

Oh, I completely agree that it's pretty much up to individual choice in how you want to build your fire/IV spec. Frost Warding is great in PvP, and so is Improved Frost Nova. That said, the question you and I are responding to is, "what is the optimal raid dps spec post 2.3.2?" and I would argue that Al'ar and Illidan phase 2 strongly back the case that a spec with 5/5 Improved Frostbolt is clearly optimal for raiding.