“Techno-feudalism”?

[FireIceTalon]

This term and the narrative surrounding it (what it consists of, it’s differences from capitalism, so on and so fort) seems to be all the rage now. According to proponents of this theory’s existence “capitalism is dead” and we now live in a new era of exploitation. The main proponent of this narrative is an author by the name Yanis Varoufakis that wrote an entire book on it. Note: I have not read it
 
However, this article provides what seems a pretty good description as well as a solid rejection of the theory. Thoughts? I’m particularly curios as to what Kandrathe, Jester and Eppie would have to say.

As for my own thoughts, a TLDR version of it, is that it’s basically nonsense. We still live under capitalism, and we aren’t going back to feudalism anytime soon (never, to be precise). I think proponents of this techno-feudalism are simply mistaking an increase or change in the ‘productive forces of society’ for a change in the ENTIRE social organization of society. Technology taking on or acquiring new forms, which is essentially what this is, is a very different thing from an economic system changing into another entirely different economic system, in my not-so-humble opinion.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177...X241269293

[fresh_meat]

According to proponents of this theory’s existence “capitalism is dead” and we now live in a new era of exploitation.

FIT, what exactly is being exploited here? How is this any different from how money is abused previously?

[FireIceTalon]

That’s precisely my point comrade. Nothing has changed, this is still capitalism. Capitalism with more advancements in technics, but still capitalism nonetheless.

[eppie]

This term and the narrative surrounding it (what it consists of, it’s differences from capitalism, so on and so fort) seems to be all the rage now. According to proponents of this theory’s existence “capitalism is dead” and we now live in a new era of exploitation. The main proponent of this narrative is an author by the name Yanis Varoufakis that wrote an entire book on it. Note: I have not read it
 
However, this article provides what seems a pretty good description as well as a solid rejection of the theory. Thoughts? I’m particularly curios as to what Kandrathe, Jester and Eppie would have to say.

As for my own thoughts, a TLDR version of it, is that it’s basically nonsense. We still live under capitalism, and we aren’t going back to feudalism anytime soon (never, to be precise). I think proponents of this techno-feudalism are simply mistaking an increase or change in the ‘productive forces of society’ for a change in the ENTIRE social organization of society. Technology taking on or acquiring new forms, which is essentially what this is, is a very different thing from an economic system changing into another entirely different economic system, in my not-so-humble opinion.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177...X241269293

That has been a long time! 
Varoufakis is of course a former Greek finance minister and a very smart guy.
So I'm not sure if I understand everything you say and I also haven't read the books but what is happening now is probably changing our whole society.  The only way we can go back to our liberal democratic western world is when American people manage to unite before next mid term election and en-masse vote away the republican majority. This will be difficult because of the almost full ownership of the (social) media by Trump and his henchmen and the destruction of all kinds of institutions needed in a modern democracy. In Europe many countries have right wing governments and large groups of people who are looking for revenge against ''other people who are to blame"" (people from the left wing, immigrants, gays, Lhbtq, people with degrees etc.). I personally think the chance is quite big (never has been so big since WW2 that in a few years we will have camps where political opponents and minorities will be imprisoned and worse.
The strange thing is that it has now turned out that lying on an immense scale is accepted and that also voters for Trump don't care that he pushes them into poverty as long as immigrants and trans-people only suffer suffer more than them. The collab with people like Musk but also Zuckerberg, Bezos etc. clearly shows that this government wants to benefit financially on a personal level at the expense of the American citizens.....and they don't seem to care. This is a difference with the EU, we also have fascists in power or almost in power but we don't see the personal enrichment (African dictator style) yet. 
Capitalism has changed I think: the focus on crypto (including personal wealth creation) and the import taxes. The world becomes less global. Which you could think would be good for for example the climate (less shipping around stuff) but we will all get poorer, and most of the right wing governments don't want to do anything about climate change of course.
So I think we are going towards a scifi like society with some very rich people that will control everything. It is clearl that it doesn't matter if you are american, russian or chinese, as long as you are rich and willing to suppress your people you are a friend.
So the issue is not if we call it still capitalism or feudalism, the issue is that western democracy is seriously threatened.

[FireIceTalon]

Greetings Eppie, it’s been a long time indeed.

In light of the world plunging into ever greater darkness (pun intended), and teetering on a cliff of self destruction, I’ve decided to take it upon myself to reacquaint myself with revolutionary theory. Still a Marxist of course, but much more well read and with a far higher intellectual threshold of my understanding of both the theory itself and the state of the world, since being active here. Since the turn of the year, I’ve read all of the following (some are re-reads, naturally):

The Communist Manifesto - Marx and Engels (5th or so read)

Socialism: Utopian and Scientific - Engels (2nd read)

Critique of the Gotha Programme - Marx (2nd read)

Wage Labor and Capital - Marx

Darwinism and Marxism - Anton Pannekoek

Workers Councils - Anton Pannekoek 

The State and Revolution - Lenin

Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism - Lenin

Value, Price and Profit - Marx

Black Shirts and Reds - Parenti

Anti-Bolshevik Communism - Paul Mattick

I intend to re-read Rosa Luxemburg’s “Reform vs Revolution” and Engels “The Origins of the Family, Private Property, and the State. And I’m finally gonna tackle the Das Kapital volumes hopefully by the end of the year.

Capitalisms contradictions are reaching the boiling point - which is why the world is in such utter chaos and we are seeing the rise of fascism again. I don’t think there has been a more important time to read revolutionary theory now than in the last 60 years or so. Democracy cannot defeat fascism - only revolutionary socialism can.

I don’t believe either the ‘Left’ or ‘Right’ of capital cares one bit about climate change. But it should be no surprise, alternative energy sources are not conducive to capitalisms internal logic of “production for profit”.

[FireIceTalon]

All that being said, a good number of my views, even within the Marxist theoretical framework, have naturally changed based on my increased knowledge and my assessment of the current material conditions. Probably my most significant change is that I no longer believe a mass party can bring about socialism. I reject Leninism and especially Marxism-Leninism in all its forms. It is nothing more than bourgeois opportunism - and all its adherents are little more than left wing political nationalists. I don’t even identify as a “Leftist” anymore - too ideological.

[eppie]

All that being said, a good number of my views, even within the Marxist theoretical framework, have naturally changed based on my increased knowledge and my assessment of the current material conditions. Probably my most significant change is that I no longer believe a mass party can bring about socialism. I reject Leninism and especially Marxism-Leninism in all its forms. It is nothing more than bourgeois opportunism - and all its adherents are little more than left wing political nationalists. I don’t even identify as a “Leftist” anymore - too ideological.

Yes times have changed and therefor a different politics is needed. I stopped being part of the socialist party because they were against raising more taxes on flights because everyone needs to be able to fly for a low price once or twice per year. The also are against more taxation on meat. That was the drop for me....that is not what being social and wanting to help your fellow man is about.
Our biggest issues now are the climate and environment and the power of big tech/the superrich which now led to the possible destruction of democracy in the USA.
 You can be against immigration or want to welcome people that are on the run for wars but if we don't do anything about climate change every year we will get more conflicts and immigration will skyrocket. (wars, lack of clean drinking water, lack of food etc.)

As long as the world doesn't unit to really tackle climate change our lives as we know it will become very very different. I think chances are very big that in 50 years we have a world population of 5 billion.

[FireIceTalon]

One of the biggest obstacles to climate change, aside from private capital, is that even from the non-owning classes it gets put on the back burner. Climate change is absolutely something that needs to be remedied, capitalism is destroying the planet. But for most people, access to affordable healthcare, the struggle to make ends meet and working 2 or more jobs just hits much closer to home than renewable energy and such. And this is understandable.

In a proletarian revolution, a “conscience of ecology’, of some sort, will be absolutely necessary when productive relations are being reorganized. Emancipation from capitalist social relations won’t be of use if we continue to ignore these environmental concerns if the planet becomes uninhabitable.

It’s just as well you exited your socialist party, since revolution cannot come via a party anyways. It must be from the working class itself, and this was the fatal flaw of Bolshevism. There is a distinction between class and party. Leninism was flawed in the last century, and is even less applicable today.

[eppie]

One of the biggest obstacles to climate change, aside from private capital, is that even from the non-owning classes it gets put on the back burner. Climate change is absolutely something that needs to be remedied, capitalism is destroying the planet. But for most people, access to affordable healthcare, the struggle to make ends meet and working 2 or more jobs just hits much closer to home than renewable energy and such. And this is understandable.

In a proletarian revolution, a “conscience of ecology’, of some sort, will be absolutely necessary when productive relations are being reorganized. Emancipation from capitalist social relations won’t be of use if we continue to ignore these environmental concerns if the planet becomes uninhabitable.

It’s just as well you exited your socialist party, since revolution cannot come via a party anyways. It must be from the working class itself, and this was the fatal flaw of Bolshevism. There is a distinction between class and party. Leninism was flawed in the last century, and is even less applicable today.

In many countries the working class as we knew doesn't exist anymore. It is these classes that have benefitted from the social welfare state which focused on healthcare for everyone, mininum wage, pension, education for everyone but now that they have been emancipated they care about what phone or car the can buy and they en masse choose political parties that want to make life worse for the current lowest classes. Immigrants.
The superrich use these autochthonous voters to focus on hatred towards other groups while they can keep on make the rich richer. Nothing will come from the working class anymore....I am very skeptical.
And what also is very worrying is the mistrust in science and intellectuals that is created by the right wing populists. Trumps administration but also those in the Netherlands, Italy, Hungary and a few more countries resemble the Red Khmer regime.....for now without the killing fields.