Autism, exploitation and Capitalism

[FireIceTalon]

Communism as you think of it will never fucking exist.

Gee, maybe you can use your crystal ball and tell me not to go on the roads tomorrow since you can forsee the fatal car accident I will get into. Or that I will get food poisoning from my lunch the day after that (assuming I don't go driving tomorrow). Or that I will fall down a set of stairs the day after that one

I'm sure every monarch and emperor said and thought the same thing you do; that their power was absolute and that they would rule forever because it was all part of Gods will, lol. Now, look at them. Swept into the dustbin of history. FOREVER. Every system of class conflict has either succumbed to complete social and economic collapse, or was destroyed by social revolution when the institutions were no longer sufficient to uphold changing productive forces. The system and its institutions are failing all over the world, and the ruling classes are responding in panic mode which is why the world is in such turmoil presently.

Capitalism is not economically sustainable. This isn't merely an opinion, it is a fact that can be observed by understanding the systems internal logic and realizing that the space it occupies is finite, its not rocket science. It comes down to either complete collapse into something even more barbaric, or it is replaced by a planned, more rationalized economic system that is safer for the environment, more efficient, and better serves human beings needs (but all of this requires human agency to achieve). The whole point of communism is to ensure the latter and prevent the former, because these are the only two options we face. There are no alternative outcomes besides these two things that can occur in the aftermath of late-stage capitalism. So, it begs the famous question, socialism or barbarism? I am firmly in the camp of the former. You, however, seem to want the latter. If so, you are on the wrong side of history comrade. We must do everything necessary to stop people like you, since it would be utterly catastrophic for both the planet and our species if you got your way.

Anyone deluded enough to believe that humans will ever be able to coexist in such a manner needs to get out of the fucking basement and meet some real life people

Um lol, they already have coexisted in similar ways. Get out the basement and take a cultural anthropology class please (where you will meet people)

there are also a fuck ton of corrupt, selfish, power-hungry, conniving bastards, who sure as shit will never allow your silly dream to become a reality.

Well, when the revolution pops off, I know what side of the barracks you will be on.

Anyways, we shall see. For the time being, the capitalists are better organized and more armed than the workers. Don't count on it being that way forever. They are not invincible, far from it in fact, as the many revolutions, uprisings, social movements and struggles that have taken place throughout modern human history prove. Likely, there will come a time their system is overthrown, and they won't be able to do jack shit about it. There are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more workers than there are capitalists and bureaucrats. That is why ideological control is so important for them, cause they know the moment that is gone, *gives throat slitting gesture*. What they will "allow" wont matter, because it will be taken from them BY FORCE. What the fuck do you think a revolution is? We aren't starting an after school book club here. You think we are going to get down on our knees one day and ask them "can we please just have communism, pretty please??". LOL. Believe me, we ain't going to be asking, we are just going to be DOING, simple as that. Oh, you want to try and stop us? Be my guest.

Communism + humanity = stalinism.

Nope, communism + humanity = simply humanity on a socially higher level.

[LennyLen]

Gee, maybe you can use your crystal ball and tell me not to go on the roads tomorrow since you can forsee the fatal car accident I will get into.

No prescience required. Just the ability to reason.

Um lol, they already have coexisted in similar ways.

In small numbers. The only reason they work is because the people in them want them to. It doesn't work when you throw in all the people that abhor communism.

Well, when the revolution pops off, I know what side of the barracks you will be on.

I'd love nothing more than to live in the society you dream about. I learnt a long long time ago though the futility of throwing everything into pointless crusades. I was once also naive and had big dreams. I was convinced that I and my fellow humanitarians could stop your country from constantly going to war, with our chants and signs and protests, all from halfway around the world. We broke into your army bases to spraypaint slogans which usually ended in arrests and lots of "falling down" while in custody of your MPs. We even tried stopping a state visit by whoever your Vice President was back in 92. Quayle I think. But war is never going to stop, so trying to end all war is a waste of time and energy. I still am very anti-war and I would never think of not trying to promote peace, and sometimes more peaceful minds prevail and some wars are averted, so I definitely don't believe in having a defeatist attitude to war. We all can make a difference.

Likewise I don't think you, or anyone else, should ever stop trying to fight for a better society and government. But again, I think your time and energy could be far better used to fight battles you can actually win, instead of the ones that nobody ever will.

[Ashock]

Um lol, they already have coexisted in similar ways. Get out the basement and take a cultural anthropology class please (where you will meet people)

Nope, communism + humanity = simply humanity on a socially higher level.

I agree with you completely. Communism + humanity = USSR, Red China, North Korea, North Vietnam, Cuba. All pillars of humanity and human rights.

How many more will you need to understand? You are a walking definition of insanity according to Einstein. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result every time.

Honestly, your posts dissapoint me. Not in you but in the time I've wasted on my replies to you. I haven't posted for a few years here, so I kind of forgot who I'm dealing with. I now remember and I'm frankly bored.

And here's a parting gift from me to you.

[FireIceTalon]

You are a walking definition of insanity according to Einstein. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result every time.

Einstein was ideologically a socialist, lol. You know, you should probably do a little more research next time in selecting who you quote from to drive a point home

That quote, ironically enough, applies to capitalism and its sham elections to a T, where people think voting for their rulers every couple years can or will actually change things meaningfully. Anyways, I'm also getting bored of this discussion, so I am going to just put the hammer down, once and for all, with authority. There will be no recovery for you, from this.

All the examples you listed "failed" not because socialism doesn't or can't work, but because in almost all of them the bourgeois imperialists did EVERYTHING in their power to make sure the revolutions failed - through sabatoge, counter-revolution and civil war, economic embargos, creation and backing of fascist dictatorships, murdering and imprisoning leftists, and of course, propaganda and slandering of socialist ideas. They used pretty much every tactic under the sun to accomplish this. Then you have the audacity to say "hey look, socialism doesn't work!". For a long time, these lies and slanderings have been very effective, but people are starting to see through this bullshit.

Brilliant contextomy there of Trotsky to make it sound like he advocated starvation and cannibilism, and a shining example of the slandering I mentioned above. He actually was referring to the 1921 Russian famine that occurred as a result of the Civil War caused by the imperialist, reactionary, anti-semetic White Movement forces that sought to sabatoge the gains of the 1917 Revolution and ultimately restore a monarchy in Russia; when messengers for starving European peasants supposedly came to him for help. Too bad there isn't even any source that can reliably claim he ever made this statement to begin with, but even if he did, it was more or less his (blunt) way of saying to them, "we have bigger problems in our own country right now, sorry but we can't help you at this time".

But the irony of it all is this: it was BECAUSE OF reactionary forces that held ideologies similar to yours that there was a Civil War to begin with, which destroyed the countries resources and infastructure and resulted in these attrocities that you decry so much. The Revolution itself was relatively bloodless in comparison to the Civil War that the imperialist White Army imposed upon the Bolsheviks. Historians often say the Bolsheviks won this Civil War, but only in the short run. In the long run, they really didn't because the costs of it were so exboritant and crippling for Russian society that building a socialist economy became impossible; in already rather difficult circumstances. And so, the restoration of capitalism eventually was the only logical result. Then, once again, you have the gall to label communism a failure. This is a farce. Fashies, monarchs, anti-semites, capitalists, and other reactionary scum ultimately have no one else but THEMSELVES to blame for all the attrocities that followed in Russia - the Stalin regime INCLUDED since he would have never came to power if the White Imperialists had just left the Revolution be. For someone who supposedly lived in the former SU, your historical knowledge of it, to put it nicely, is trash. The ahistorical, slandering, revisionist crud you spew is astounding (if sometimes comical), but let my post here be the final, decisive nail in your intellectual coffin. I've conversed with people who are still in MIDDLE SCHOOL that understand Russian history (and history period) better than you do.

I kind of forgot who I'm dealing with. I now remember and I'm frankly bored.

Ok cya. Not that there is any coming back for you after this post, you have lost all credibility on this subject so anything you say on it from here on out, I will kindly disregard. I'm guided by facts, historical & scientific inquiry, and reason. You're guided by ideology, conspiracy theories & mythology, and emotion; thats the difference between us.

[FireIceTalon]

No prescience required. Just the ability to reason.

I don't know, I think making bold claims about future historical development is closer to the realm of prescience, than actual reasoning.

Marx and Engels reasoned that a classless and stateless society was possible (but not inevitable), and they based this reasoning on a extremely rigorous and decades-long empirical research of the historical development of society, in particular capitalism and its workings, that became one of the most cohesive frameworks to be applied in multiple disciplines. I would say they were in a much better position to be making more bold claims than you or I, but even with this vast understanding they had, they still knew better not to. The Marxist framework, generally speaking, is anti-deterministic and is really used to understand and analyze things than it is to predict them.

Um lol, they already have coexisted in similar ways.

In small numbers. The only reason they work is because the people in them want them to. It doesn't work when you throw in all the people that abhor communism.

Let me explain in better detail, I probably wasn't coherent enough in my previous reply.

It isn't simply a matter of liking or disliking a given social order. Otherwise, capitalism would have been gone long ago because there are a ton of people who hate it. We can only wish the legitimacy of a system rested on something so simple as human emotion, but things are quite more complicated in reality.

Material conditions change whether people like it or not, it is something beyond their control as technology and productive forces of society ever develop more and they come into conflict with relations of production. For instance, most monarchs opposed revolution or even gradual social change because they wanted to continue what they thought was their divine right to rule, and today, they would hate the rule of law system, the (theoretical) checks and balances on political power, voting, the use of science and technology, and separation of church and state in many capitalist societies, amongst other things.

But alas, history was not on their side; the social conditions were ripe for a fundamental transformation in the mode of production. That is why there were so many revolutions, political and social enlightenment movements, and social unrest in the mid 17th-19th centuries. Monarchs, members of the aristocratic/land-owning ruling class, and churches rejected the development of capitalism as the new order of things because they saw industrialization as a threat to their status and power, and did everything they could to resist it. But now that capitalism has long established itself the last couple hundred years as the dominant social order, you aren't going to find too many people who want to go back to feudalism (and understandably so), regardless of their political ideology. But even if they did want to, it's not gonna happen because the institutions, productive forces and current level of technology in society aren't congruent to an feudalist organization of humans anymore - that is why capitalism came to be in the first place, even if it did require some human agency to make it happen.

It wasn't so much that people woke up one day and said "hey, we want capitalism, down with feudalism!". It was a change in the material conditions, and as capitalism and its institutions developed, only then did peoples conception of society and the world at large begin to change; they understood their existence in a fundamentally different way than those who lived under feudalism and monarchies did. This is what Marx precisely meant when he stated "it is not the consciousness of humans that determines their social being, but it is their social being that determines their consciousness".

The same would be true of the transition from capitalism to socialism (and eventually communism), and it would be a struggle between those who want to restore the old capitalist order and the revolutionaries just as it was in the transition from feudal society to industrialism. This isn't to say communism is inevitable, because if it were no human agency would be required and we would just let back and let history unfold, but ofc that isn't how history works. Most social change in general, requires a degree of human agency. Marx once stated "Men make history, but not on their terms under self-selected circumstances - they make it based already existing conditions given and transmitted from the past", and this has proven to be entirely true. Communism isn't something to be established because we "like" it, but because it is in the objective interests of the proletariat and because the material conditions for it made possible. Alot of people abhor capitalism, but for now, we are forced to live in it. That being said, realization of an eventual communist society is still a possibility - we have the technological and economic capacity for it now, whereas 300 years ago we didn't. If we thought communism to be impossible, and that capitalism could be reformed to everyones benefit, we would just settle for social democracy. But even if you ignore class struggle (which you can't, but lets pretend for the moment you can), that still doesn't take into consideration that capitalism is environmentally and economically unsustainable. I could be the biggest gazillionare capitalist tycoon in the world, and I would still say (or at least know) that that the present order of things cannot continue unabated. It's impossible. Unless of course, we plan to start colonizing other planets, because that is what we would eventually need to do to comply with the capitalist law-of-motion of 'continuous economic growth and expansion', and that still further doesn't take into consideration that we would probably destroy THIS planet in the process. I don't forsee us being able to do that though. I think building a communist society HERE is a more realistic outcome or alternative, and CERTAINLY, its a much easier one to accomplish.

Sorry that was long.

Likewise I don't think you, or anyone else, should ever stop trying to fight for a better society and government. But again, I think your time and energy could be far better used to fight battles you can actually win, instead of the ones that nobody ever will.

I'm not entirely against shorter term goals, in fact I generally favor them. The ultimate goal of communists is the overthrow of capitalism, but we fight for gains within the capitalist system also, i.e. higher wages, better working conditions, maternity/fraternity leave, free healthcare/education, etc, anything really that improves the lives of working and poor people and especially the most vulnerable of them (minorities, women, disabled, and other oppressed identities). Communists disagree on whether this is a good or bad thing, since some feel that fighting for shorter term goals makes workers complacent {if they get their way} and less likely to fight for more lofty goals. Others though, feel achieving short term goals helps to foster 'class consciousness' and that workers will see they can struggle for more gains. I tend to belong in the latter camp, but even if I'm wrong, I think it would be extremely selfish and mean spirited not to improve peoples lives in the meantime for the sake of focusing entirely on larger, harder to obtain goals. The counter-argument from the former camp is that dependency on a welfare state is in itself dehumanizing for the worker since it illuminates their alienation from the value they produce, and as a consequence their inability to determine their own life and destiny - since he/she is limited to pursuing activities that are predicated upon those of the ruling class. It's a pretty solid argument, but I remain of the opinion that workers should fight for their immediate interests. Either way, while i think winning short term gains is great, it still isn't the final goal by any means. They are a means rather than an end.

Anyways, I can understand the skepticism of a communist society ever happening. It has been pounded into our heads so much, in every sphere of society, and for so long by the ruling class, that we've kinda come to accept it as truth. We are taught from a very young age anti-communist ideas and that capitalism and competition are the natural order of things, etc; that these things are 'conventional wisdom'. And like so many others who grew up in bourgeois society and was exposed to all its influences, there was a time, quite a long time at that, when I believed most of it. Roughly the first 33 years of my life. No longer though.

For me, and those who are like minded, capitalism is about as natural as crystal meth, and what many would call 'conventional wisdom', we would call sheer lunacy. We have become entirely disillusioned with the present order of things. Through reading and understanding its history, how the system objectively works through observation of ongoing struggles and conflicts around every corner of the world, and through our own experiences, struggles, hardships and grievances under it....I cannot help but to be anything EXCEPT a communist at this point. For me, to be anything else would be entirely irrational. I am forever class conscious. There is no turning back for us.

[Archon_Wing]

I think it would be extremely selfish and mean spirited not to improve peoples lives in the meantime for the sake of focusing entirely on larger, harder to obtain goals.

Wow. I'd thought I'd never see more people willing to say that. Not willing to get into this debate, but you have my respect. You certainly have more faith in humanity than many here, but we will see if it pays off.

[FireIceTalon]

Wow. I'd thought I'd never see more people willing to say that. Not willing to get into this debate, but you have my respect.

Well, quite a few communists feel that the welfare state only strengthens the capitalist system and thus reject more short-term goals for the working class. I firmly disagree with this position though, because it inadvertently puts the blame on the welfare state instead of on capitalism itself. In other words, if we abolished capitalism, we wouldn't need a welfare state to begin with! Abolishing the welfare system though, will not abolish capitalism or its evils. I've been accused by some comrades as being Reformist or a social democrat, but this slander is frivolous since I support welfare gains only as temporary measures and not as an end, nor as a method of trying to gradually reform socialism into existence. I adamantly support Luxemburgs position of revolution as being the only way to bring about socialism and eventually communism.

But to allow people to suffer for the sake of ideological purity is pretty cruel, and thus why I am in favor of social gains and benefits as long as capitalism exists. Besides, workers obtaining reforms also allows them to see the limitations of said reforms.

I've made it quite clear by now that I am as vehemently anti-capitalist as you can get, and that socialism cannot be obtained through reform. But within its context, the gutting of the welfare state and austerity that has become commonplace nowadays, has been a most devestating experience that has put many working families in dire straights, and misery. Its hard to prove directly, but I bet one of the leading causes of clinical depression and drug use is being poor, living from paycheck to paycheck and suffering from financial insecurity. Even though its for different reasons, communists who oppose the welfare state are almost as bad as the liberals/conservatives who oppose and dismantle it all the time.

You certainly have more faith in humanity than many here, but we will see if it pays off.

Maybe. But I question it all the time. Seeing all the bad shit that goes down in the world, its impossible for me not to. I haven't officially been diagnosed, but I wouldn't be surprised if I have mild-moderate depression, and I'm pretty certain I have anxiety - though part of that is from being on the spectrum. Today some white kid that plays on a high school football team who raped one of his teammates, a mentally disabled, black kid in October of last year got off by pleading to a lesser charge and only has to do 300 hours community service. If the situation had been reversed, we all know there would have been jail time for the black kid. Its disgusting, and shit like this REALLY makes me question my faith in humanity.