So just what was Belial's plan there?

[ViralSpiral]

Actually to my knowledge, this is the first Diablo game to mention there BEING any Gods. I figure the older games didn't want to piss off any real world religions and just kind of avoided any mention of deific beings. I was a little shocked to hear there -are- any, actually.

[FoxBat]

(More on Bad Writing Theatre: Having the souls of people you "wronged" show up to yell at you.

..
Leah stupids her way through everything (and then blames the player herp a derp?

Heck, I was depressed when someone else killed Imperius.

Are these kind of misunderstandings why Blizz tried to err on the simple side?

The "souls" of the departed are just apparitions of Diablo. Or at least I thought their incredibly out-of-character claims, followed by transforming into demons, should have given that impression.

Imperius and friends were not killed on the arch. All angels were incapacitated while Diablo was messing with the arch, you can even see them moving on the ground. After Diablo is killed, several angels show up, so clearly Imperius should be fine.

Actually to my knowledge, this is the first Diablo game to mention there BEING any Gods. I figure the older games didn't want to piss off any real world religions and just kind of avoided any mention of deific beings. I was a little shocked to hear there -are- any, actually.

The godS have nothing to do with angels or demons. That's more the reason the past Diablos ignored them, they had nothing to do with the Christian gothic ethos. Therefore there's no danger in bringing them out now, as they have nothing to do with the religions of America. In D3 Jay actually made a point that they weren't going to be using pentagrams or upside down crosses precisely to distance themselves from Christianity.

[ViralSpiral]

Oh good. Imperius might show up in an expansion. I still want to smear the smug wanker.

[NuurAbSaal]

It's obvious that they wanted to make the main story simple and linear so that everyone coming to the game could follow it and know exactly what to do at each stage. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the writers wrote a more complicated main story and at each stage were told to simplify it so that even the most obtuse players could know what to do at each stage. (Go to the Keep Depths, dummy!).

I agree with the rest of your post, but "simple and linear" does not have to equal cringeworthy. It almost looks like they exclusively hired a giant ham to write their bosses...

Kulle is the only one with a somewhat natural progression in the conversations (I don't have a problem with his actions at the end being more or less clear from the second you first hear him talk). He feels right, a good mix of insanity, power tripping and trying to seduce the player character. I just didn't get any of that from the other bosses, there's just nothing there. To circle back to the OP: Belial was just... bleh!

take care
Tarabulus


P.S.: As an aside, the only decent reaction to the player character's obvious power comes from the coven cultists. They are terrified, as they should be (among other things, shown through a brilliant little diary entry in Act 2, loved that one).

[swirly]

Oh good. Imperius might show up in an expansion. I still want to smear the smug wanker.

That is actually my bet for an expansion. The Black Soulstone falls to earth. Corrupting the ground where it lands. (I can't take credit for this bit. Frag mentioned it once to me in a conversation we had) Adria goes after it and we have to kill her. Imperius does as well. People have pointed out how you can't fight Diablo for so long without being tainted and Imperius has been fighting the whole time too. Plus he was stabbed by Diablo and just imagine if there is a sliver left in him. The corruption it could bring. So I'm expecting there eventually to be a corrupted Imperious fight in the future.

Fighting through a land corrupted by the Black Soulstone. Adria for the first mini-boss. Corrupted Imperious for the last boss. Then Tyrael probably destroys the Black Soulstone. One Act expansion just like LOD. Even ends on a similar note. I think Blizzard is just routine enough to do that.

[Jester]

To nobody in particular, a thought occurred to me, about what's happened to the series.

D1 was clearly a classic horror. The evil you were up against were vast, ancient, and hidden. Diablo was something beyond the power of humans to defeat, the very idea of fear. Tristram is not the last refuge of epic warriors, but the charred, tragic remains of an encounter with the impossibly evil. Even at the end of your quest, once your champion had hacked and slashed your way to the end, accumulating power and equipment far beyond ordinary mortals, you merely became the monster you tried to kill. Humans = ephemeral, Evil = eternal. Angels feature in the backstory, but they are decidedly absent in any other way. Only dark cults even have any sense that the evil even exists, and their best efforts amount to little in the end. Classic Lovecraft.

D3 flips this around, weirdly. You are not infinitely less than the angels and demons - perhaps you are even slightly more. Nephalem are not heroes from Lovecraftian horror, outmatched and afraid. They're Kratos-style Godslayers, out to butcher every entity in the heavens and hells, if given any excuse at all. This is a completely different genre, something more like a comic book story, humans-as-superhumans.

I never felt, in all D3, a single moment of actual terror. I was a lot younger when I played D1, but I definitely remember fear being a major part of the emotional atmosphere of that game. (The pseudo-hardcore corpse system might have had something to do with it, in fairness, but I think atmosphere has a lot to do with it as well.)

-Jester

[NuurAbSaal]

snip

Spot on, and it makes the Prime Evils's lack of understanding of their peril in D3 so annoying. They really should know better, at the latest midway through Act 2. There's an unrestrained Nephalem out to get them. Act accordingly.

take care
Tarabulus

EDIT: There's tons to be said about the change in gameplay/narrative style, but I guess that's a matter of preference.

[ViralSpiral]

Not only is there a nephalem out to get them, but in the last 20 years, Prime Evils have been getting their shit -ruined- by humans, much less nephalem. You'd think they'd be a tad less overconfident about then nature of these encounters. I can only be glad they didn't make Leah blonde because the jokes would never end.

[NuurAbSaal]

Not only is there a nephalem out to get them, but in the last 20 years, Prime Evils have been getting their shit -ruined- by humans, much less nephalem. You'd think they'd be a tad less overconfident about then nature of these encounters.

I actually meant to elaborate on that point and talk about how in D2 they got owned by humans. Then a mild nerd rage took me and I forgot about the elaboration. Thanks for completing my thoughts now .

take care
Tarabulus

[ViralSpiral]

What really cheeses me after being exposed to the Belial plot a second time was that he didn't make any attempt to get you to try and hit him as a ten year old, or at least leave a ten year old corpse behind for you to try and explain.

Another gem from Leah. "People said my mother was a witch but I didn't believe them." Really? Her name was Adria the Witch. Witching was what she did. It was her most definable character trait, and in fact the only thing she was known for. Nevermind that Leah lives in a world where there's no reason to disbelieve that because there's no shame in being a witch in the first place. They're not in a world where witchcraft is or, so far as I know, was ever banned. At worst, Adria was considered a little creepy. So was Wirt. And Farnham. Just...nerd rage. Whomever they paid $5 to write Leah was grossly overpaid.

[Bolty]

What really cheeses me after being exposed to the Belial plot a second time was that he didn't make any attempt to get you to try and hit him as a ten year old, or at least leave a ten year old corpse behind for you to try and explain.

Violence against children in video games is possibly even more taboo than sex in video games. It just won't happen. Imagine the media frenzy over depictions of a child being beaten/killed in a game. It won't matter that said child is "one of the Prime Evils of Hell in disguise," the media will throw up a screenshot of a dead/bloodied child and scream LOOK AT THE PICTURE! THE HORRORS!

Notice how Grand Theft Auto has no kids wandering the streets? Sure, you can go on murderous rampages against hundreds of innocent civilians...but, no kids!

[ViralSpiral]

I find that amusing. People worry so much about what content is in games. Look at Game of Thrones. Admittedly it's not exactly on a main channel or anything, but to the best of my knowledge, you don't have to be any particular age to purchase the season DVD. (Edit: And the show is TONED WAY DOWN compared to the books, mind.)

It wouldn't even have to come to actual violence anyhow. Even if he'd just said "Do you really think you could bring yourself to strike a child such as this?" or something. He didn't even try to take that psychological advantage. Even if the reply is "We both know you're not really a child" and Belial dropping the disguise, at least he TRIED. Just seems like a missed opportunity there.

(Plus, wasn't Albrecht like 15? Admittedly, he's never shown in game as Albrecht...or at least not living.)

[Elric of Grans]

There is a reference to witches being treated as criminals and a very clear stigma against them. They do not seem to be considered good things, so it makes sense that Leah would not want to think her mother is something horrible. Cain probably told her stories about how kind and gentle her mother was as she grew up --- the usual trash you tell kids.

Skyrim is another example of what Bolty is talking about. You can go on a murderous rampage, but children cannot be harmed. It would make for a better story, but the media would have seen Blizzard shut down over it. Making it talk only completely loses the effect, so what they went with was just as good.

[Mavfin]

(Plus, wasn't Albrecht like 15? Admittedly, he's never shown in game as Albrecht...or at least not living.)

A teenager is ambiguous. Just on a visual with that hole in his head, you can't be for sure of his age.

But a 10 year old, having already been portrayed with that voice, and knowing he was 10 from other lore you picked up/heard? No, they won't show him being killed in that form.

Too many groups w/o a clue would just have a meltdown over it, and it's just not worth it to Blizzard or any other game company in this country to have to deal with that for the sake of an in-game story.

It's just like in Supernatural (my 18-year-old daughter watches it, so I pick up bits and pieces) when Dean kills the demon/whatever that eats pituitary glands, and her son catches him. He lets him go, because you *just can't kill him on television* even if the kid is the same thing she is/was.

[Concillian]

Prime Evils, and their assorted minions, should be seen, not heard.

Yeah. Fully agree.

Azmodan can present visions to you, but the demon master of lies and deceit has to show up in person (disguised)? What?

How and why is Diablo even communicating with you in Act IV? Why would he even do this if he's trying to get heaven corrupted ASAP?

The story isn't quite as bad as the way it's presented.

Really all that the story needs is two things:

1) no hokey 'vision quest' communication

2) an additional plot twist with Belial. Something like he deceives you into killing the real emperor because you thought it was Belial.
Then you get a little brotherly dispute going on in Act III, where Belial screws up Azmodan's well oiled sin machine. Bam, fixed, done.

It's like they cheesed up the story just as an excuse to use more voice acting budget.

[MongoJerry]

This is the main reason I worry about Ender's Game being made into a film. Take out Ender's killing of Stilson and Bonzo, and a major part of Ender's character is lost. He's a sweet empathetic kid who is also a killer (the Valentine and Peter duality). Take away the killer part, and he becomes just some kid who thought he was playing a video game and without knowing it saved the world in the process (and committed genocide/xenocide in the process).

[MongoJerry]

This comic seemed aprapos toward the original topic:

http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/05/21

[ViralSpiral]

Have you ever had a mentally slow pet that was nonetheless adorable and an interesting conversation piece? If I ever do, I'm naming it Leah. Just sayin'.

[Lissa]

To nobody in particular, a thought occurred to me, about what's happened to the series.

D1 was clearly a classic horror. The evil you were up against were vast, ancient, and hidden. Diablo was something beyond the power of humans to defeat, the very idea of fear. Tristram is not the last refuge of epic warriors, but the charred, tragic remains of an encounter with the impossibly evil. Even at the end of your quest, once your champion had hacked and slashed your way to the end, accumulating power and equipment far beyond ordinary mortals, you merely became the monster you tried to kill. Humans = ephemeral, Evil = eternal. Angels feature in the backstory, but they are decidedly absent in any other way. Only dark cults even have any sense that the evil even exists, and their best efforts amount to little in the end. Classic Lovecraft.

D3 flips this around, weirdly. You are not infinitely less than the angels and demons - perhaps you are even slightly more. Nephalem are not heroes from Lovecraftian horror, outmatched and afraid. They're Kratos-style Godslayers, out to butcher every entity in the heavens and hells, if given any excuse at all. This is a completely different genre, something more like a comic book story, humans-as-superhumans.

I never felt, in all D3, a single moment of actual terror. I was a lot younger when I played D1, but I definitely remember fear being a major part of the emotional atmosphere of that game. (The pseudo-hardcore corpse system might have had something to do with it, in fairness, but I think atmosphere has a lot to do with it as well.)

-Jester

While I see where you're going with the comparison between the two, I think when D2 came out and the overall story wasn't really the Lovecraftian terror aspects anymore, that shifted focus for D2 and D3.

What I really have the problem with is the amount of backstory both D1 and D2 presented and the coherence of the story throughout D1 and D2 while having a convincing storyline was what really shows where D3 goes flat. D3s story isn't really convincing and at times isn't really coherent. This is because the writer, Chris Metzen, doesn't understand what truly makes a good story.

What D3 needed, in the story department, was a coherent and thought out story that didn't play like we, the audience, we're absolute idiots.

[RogueMage]

Anyone else think it was a colossal misstep to morph Leah into Sheablo rather than Adria? As a plot twist, its shock value was limited to that first game you played through in Normal difficulty. But its spoiler effect completely sabotages any dramatic value of replaying the extended quest sequences in subsequent games. Now when I have to click through Leah's dialog to advance the plot, I just ignore her since everything she's admonishing me about is futile and her rudimentary character arc is meaningless. If Diablo had turned out to be a shady secondary character like Adria, it would have made just as much dramatic sense and been far more watchable in replay.