The Unstoppable Force vs The Immovable Object

[NotSoDarklord]

... and everything in between. *queue collective groans at the title*

Greetings all,

With the recent reductions in damage to later Inferno Acts I'd love to get a feel for where the Lurkers are at on the spectrum of Barbarian playstyles.

From what I have seen most barbarian builds can be categorized into 3 major categories.

The Unstoppable Force

Glass cannon builds that focus on raw damage output and careful positioning to burst mobs down fast under the protection of cooldowns such as No Pain or Wrath of the Berserker. 2-hander builds are extremely common as well as dual wielding and even the occasional throwing specced barb. The key stats emphasized here tend to include a baseline level of resists to avoid getting one shot while maximizing offensive stats such as strength, crit chance, crit damage, and attack speed.

The Immovable Object

High resist builds with high %life/vitality sacrificing offensive stats to "tank" (or more realistically to bore) mobs to death until victorious. Sword-and-board is a given here. Barbs running tanky builds generally hover around 10k damage even up to late inferno. Particularly strong in group play running as constant interference between hard hitting mobs and squishy glass cannons.

Everything In-between

Hybrid builds that look to establish a balance between the two. Being able to take some hits and dish out respectable damage when needed.


Personally, I have grouped for the majority of my barbarian playtime. As a result I found building extremely tanky a viable strategy until the recent nerfs to damage where it now feels possible to be geared "too tanky". With inferno bosses gaining soft enrages after a few minutes the design of the game seems to lend itself toward stacking DPS gear on top of minimally sufficient tank stats.

As far as skills go I run Frenzy-Sidearm, Warcry-Impunity, Revenge-Provocation at all times. My remaining skill slots are filled, depending on my group composition, with some combination of Wrath of the Berserker-Insanity, Charge-Dreadnought, Threatening Shout-Demoralize, Earthquake-Call of the Mountain, Leap-Iron Impact, or Ignore Pain-Ignorance is Bliss. I would love to run more Weapon Throw-Stupefy but it's just so hard to fit the skill in with so many great skills to choose from.


I would be very interested in hearing about how everyone else is playing the class. How do you play your barb? How is that working out for you? What does your ideal gearset look like? Random barb thoughts vaguely related to my post?

[Taelas]

My first Barbarian was built more or less exactly according to the first style: Pure damage, with enough defenses to survive. This character hit level 60 in Act III of Hell, but it was a pain to get there. He was too glass-cannon and died more often than not. I never bothered even starting Act IV of Hell, as that was when I was sick of the constant dying.

I decided to try levelling a second Barbarian, but this one focused purely on survival (both because there's an achievement for having two of the same class at 60, and because I wanted to see the difference in levelling itself). This Barbarian completed all of Hell without hitting 60, and I had to go back to get more XP. I killed D again and Khom in Act III and that pushed me over. She had a total death count of maybe 4 or 5 at the time, all of which were because I was doing something wrong. She's in Inferno Act I at the moment, as I haven't focused on pushing into Act II (I haven't even completed all of the Act I quests yet). Most of my gameplay is solo, with occasional group play with my brother's Wizard.

The DPS Barbarian uses Cleave with Rupture, Furious Charge with Dreadnought, Berserker with Insanity, Revenge with Provocation, Battle Rage with Ferocity, and Warcry with Invigorate. The passive runes are Weapons Master, Ruthless, and Brawler.

The tank Barbarian uses more or less the exact same skills as you. Aside from Frenzy, Warcry and Revenge, she uses Wrath of the Berserker with Insanity, Furious Charge with Dreadnought, and Earthquake with Path of Fire. I only use Earthquake in conjunction with Wrath of the Berserker, so the rune doesn't really matter. The passives are the obvious ones: Nerves of Steel, Superstition, and Tough as Nails.

As much as I enjoy the DPS playstyle, it pales in comparison to be able to actually *survive* things, so I doubt I will bring out the DPS Barbarian much, if at all. On the other hand, the tank has maybe 6k DPS total, with a 600 DPS 1-hander.

[Athenau]

I play a 2-hander dps oriented barb: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/ba...ZYc!aZacac

I'm in Act III hell right now, and it feels manageable. I've died a fair amount, but they were almost always deaths that I could have avoided with better play. The margin for error is lower with a dps build, but I think it's a very viable playstyle.

I've been getting a lot of mileage out of (ab)using terrain to whittle down enemies I can't take head on. Bottlenecking enemies in doorways, ambushing them around corners, kiting around obstacles to isolate stragglers (and block vortex). It's a lot of fun. Reminds me of playing D1.

[MonTy]

If you read my "Nightmare and Beyond" post, you'll see I went through a few builds. Finally I've settled on one that may not be the most efficient, but I have damn fun playing this build I've melded from all the various ones I've tried. Look forward to seeing just how far I can get in Hardcore with it: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/ba...Zbe!YZccbZ

I'm focusing on dishing out as much damage as I can with enough defense to get by. Eventually I'll gear up for +crit to take advantage of Ruthless and Hammer of the Ancients (I have a few weapons/items waiting for me if I make it to 58). I'm only using two-handers as I don't want to be too much in the middle ground of defense/offense. I think there's some really good burst damage potential with this build.

I just couldn't play the frenzy/revenge build any longer. I prefer to be more proactive in my damage with cleaving my way through enemy lines and then unleashing rage with HoTA on single targets. I did enjoy my Seismic Slam build, so for my next HC character I may tweak it and give it another try, although I'd be a bit worried about inferno enrage timers.

[Tal]

Has anyone come across a Inferno-viable build for a two hand dps build?

[ErickTheRed]

There's another variant of the defensive barbarian which focuses on mobility. This build with leap and charge let's me handle many of the melee unfriendly abilities. The aim of this build is mostly to tank normal mob abilities, and use the movement powers to avoid damage from molten, fire chains, plague, arcane sentries etc. It can also be used for hit and run tactics - charge into enemies, revenge, leap out, and run away to heal some more.

Before the nerf (Seismic Slam used to affect minions and champions - it was one of my answers to invulnerable minions) Seismic Slam was amazing. Now it's something I'm used to and really awesome in the few cases I'm in danger of being overwhelmed by white mobs. It still has some uses when I'm in a fighting withdrawal against a boss pack. Leap has saved me so many times I can't imagine playing without it. It's especially useful against frozen. Charge is more aoe damage, healing, and movement. It also breaks jail. Between the two, the only movement controlling ability I really have to watch out for is nightmarish.

Even with my sub 10K dps I mostly don't have to worry about the enrage timer. In any case, the enrage timer is made to irritate those puny hunters and wizards. Sturdy barbarians can just tank through it as often as not, or I just pop into a nearby instance which resets it. If the mobs haven't been able to kill me in minutes I don't have to worry about being swarmed when I come back out.

With the recent patch I've been trying to figure out how to increase dps since I have enough defense. Changing my smite rune to sidearm is an obvious answer which works. Other than that, I haven't figured out if it's better to switch to more offensive oriented gear, or skills. In theory swapping Inspiring Presence for Berserker Rage is a large boost, but I really miss the healing when I have to play hit and run. I'm going to try to get some more life on hit or life regen and see if I can drop it.

Whenever I've tried switching to a more traditional tank build with Wrath of the Berserker and Ignore Pain I haven't felt it worked for me. Is the plan there to literally stand in everything and kill the packs before they kill you? What about fear/frozen/knockback or things that run away? It sort of works for me if I go back to Act 1, but I don't see it letting me kill packs in Act 3.

[Athenau]

Has anyone come across a Inferno-viable build for a two hand dps build?

I'm playing a 2-hander build in Inferno Act I:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/ba...ZYc!aZacac

The initial transition from Hell was rough, but a few gear upgrades got me to the point where I could get my five stacks of valor comfortably.

One thing I want to emphasize is how good Furious charge with merciless assault is. If you hit five enemies it recharges instantly. It's AoE damage (194% weapon damage, not too shabby), movement, and anti-cc (it breaks jailer) all in one. Merciless assault makes you untouchable by white mobs and kills them very quickly to boot. I know everyone likes dreadnought, but IMO when the bulk of your healing comes from revenge the added utility from a lower FC recharge is better than some additional healing every 10 seconds.

[Jabberwolky]

I am currently in Act 4 Hell and so far I have gone back and forth and tried many things. At the end of Act 3 Hell, while in route to the heart of sin, I hit a wall with my dps oriented barb. This was my spec

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/ba...cZV!aaaccZ

I would change a few runes out based on situations but from Act 1 through most of Act 3 in hell difficulty I used something similar to the one listed above. I have used this with sword and board, duel wield, and with a 2 hander. It worked fairly well until I would get to something that hit hard in melee. Another problem that I found with it was the mentality that using wrath of the beserker kind of put into me. When I activated it I had 15 seconds to use it or its wasted. I found that with this activated I took risks that were not needed that often times got me killed, because I didn't want to waste a two minute cool down. Not only that but this build forced me to be in melee range of things that hit hard and had a fairly limited aoe ability. I actually started to get pretty flustered about playing a barb bc of my problems.

Thankfully I read this thread and now I am using this with a sword and board:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/ba...bXV!aYccca

Upon switching to this spec, I cleared the rest of Act 3 Hell with no difficulty. Thanks for posting the build Erick, it has worked wonders for me and I'm probably going to use this for a good long while.

[Athenau]

You have to stutter-step when playing a 2-hander build. Never stand in the middle of mobs unless you're unloading revenge. Always reposition yourself between swings to minimize incoming damage. Use terrain and chokepoints when you can. Against things that hit hard in melee use iron-impact for the 4 seconds of (near) invulnerability to burn one or two enemies down, disengage, and repeat.

You need to good micro to play melee dps in this game, unless you're heavily overgeared.

[FireIceTalon]

I just finished Act 1 Inferno using what I guess many would call a tank build: Revenge - Provocation, Frenzy - Triumph (good alternative to the popular sidearm rune IMO), Charge - Dreadnaught, WotB - Insanity, War Cry - Impunity, and Ground Stomp - Trembling. Passives are Superstition, Tough as Nails, and Nerves of Steel. Sword and board of course. My DPS isn't anything spectacular (just under 14k), but life is pretty solid I think with about 52k hp, armor just under 10k, and resists are mostly in the 500's (with Impunity active). I actually have more Vitality than I do Strength, heh. Sometimes I will put in a damage passive like Brawler, and I may forgo Ground Stomp for Leap - Iron Impact at times. I really like GS though, that 4 seconds of stun can buy you a lot of time to Revenge in the middle of a mob or during your WotB.

I haven't started playing Act 2 yet but I suspect I will need about another 150-200 on resists for good measure.

[Athenau]

I'm near the end of Act 2 with my 2-hander build (see above). Sitting at 5800 armor, 500-600 resists, 35k life, and 44k dps, which is enough to farm the first half of the act comfortably. I took too many deaths past Dahlgur oasis, so clearly I need one or two more gear upgrades before proceeding.

It's getting expensive to buy upgrades off the AH. I have a feeling I'm going to hit a brick wall once I reach Act III. I guess I'll have to start using the blacksmith more (but he can't craft ilvl 63 stuff), but until now it's been way more efficient to sell crafting mats for gold and buy what I need.

[FireIceTalon]

Yep, I have same problem on my Wiz. Upgrades needed for Act 3 cost a bloody fortune - and it is a hard Act right from the start.

It is kind of strange to me though, because with almost all my chars, I usually found Act 2 to be harder than Act 3 in prior difficulties because of the monster mechanics of the former. My WD just hit Act 3 Hell last night and after kind of dragging through the second half of Act 2, I feel powerful again. But on Inferno, this isnt the case, Act 3 is a very large increase in difficulty from Act 2.

You have pretty nice damage on that Barb, even if it's a 2H. I rarely see Barbs crack 25k. I find survivability tough enough though with sword and shield, and more hp - but I guess that is the tradeoff. For Act 3 though, I think you will want more hp (and to consider going sword and board) - my Wiz has about 44k life with roughly same dps as your Barb, and even as a kiting char, I still find it very difficult to survive even the trash mobs. The elite packs are plain too tough, in most cases. I'm kind of stuck because I have pretty good items (at least I think so), but apparently not good enough, and upgrades are just too expensive on the AH now (and non existent in drops).

[Athenau]

I'm going to try as hard as possible to avoid switching to a S/S. People look at the dps numbers on 2H vs 1H and think the damage difference isn't that big of a deal (roughly speaking, 2H's have about a ~25% dps advantage over a comparable 1H). But the actual damage per hit is something like 60% higher, which makes a huge difference to skills that aren't limited by attack speed. Revenge and furious charge become massively more powerful with a 2H weapon, and those are my two sources of AoE so...

Right now the big gap in my gearing is healing. I have about 800 life regen, which helps a lot, but my damage is at the point where I could get a noticeable benefit with some life steal (which is underpriced relative to LoH).

[ErickTheRed]

After taking a break because I was distracted by some other games and then my wizard, I came back and finished pushing through inferno with my very defensive build. Spoiler warning - there are some details about the Act 3-4 Inferno boss fights.

This was my typical build. With that my buffed stats were 1061 physical resist, 860 resist all, 10.8K armor, 49.7K life, 984 life on hit, and a mere 9339 listed dps, although Berserker Rage makes that a little less pathetic. My weapon had 657 base dps, with 848 life on hit. From my notes I spent a little less than 5M on the AH, and most of that was shortly after patch 1.3 when things were more expensive than they are now.

I started out with a higher dps weapon without any life on hit. I'm able to handle about 1/2 to 1/3 of the packs, although it is rather tedious with the low dps. Enrage timers aren't really a problem, you just have to kill something to make progress before you reset it. Anyway, I decided that I wanted to beat act 3 and not farm it, so I mostly skipped things. Leap + Charge really let me run past things well, especially since charging in to a bunch of regular mobs refilled my health.

Ghom was a brick wall for me. I couldn't keep up with the poison damage. I had unlimited rage, but couldn't make good enough use of it. I gave up and consulted the internet. Overpower with Crushing Advance reflects all incoming damage for 4 secs. This counts for Life on Hit, and the poison ticks so fast that this fully healed me with my shiny new Life on Hit weapon. With a full heal every 15 seconds or less the fight became much more manageable. I don't think I would have realized this on my own.

Leap, leap, leap, and here is Siegebreaker. He was a problem for me solo, as it was a difficult balance to have enough defenses and enough dps. I probably could have balanced this, but it turns out a mage friend wanted to play with me at this time and he easily killed him while I tanked. The two of us were stuck on Cydea and it was at this point that I took a long break from progression.

When my mage found a good melee ring I came back to it this weekend. I had been playing around with the tornado build in act 1-2 as well, and was prepared to try it. However I found that my old standby build worked fine. There start to be a lot of spiderlings and they increase damage, but they couldn't kill me before I would get a revenge off and leap and charge let me keep engaged on Cydea. I then one shot everything up to Diablo, although one of the fights was very close as there must have been some enrage that increased the damage and I was slowly dying when I got the kill with just a tiny bit of health left.

Diablo was more tricky. I couldn't manage my shadow clone and the shadow realm. I tried the tornado build, but he kept on putting down the aoe fire thing and I couldn't get it to work. Finally the internet rescued me again, when I read that you could just kite the shadow clones and wait for them to despawn. Back to leap and charge. These were useful since there were some scary moments when it got me with ancient spear. Also because I'm not good enough to avoid every bone cage, and a quick leap to the fountain was very useful. I'm sure leap + charge isn't optimal for that fight, but it was what I'm used to and compensated for some skill deficiencies.