Patching 1.0.2c -- potentially nerfed mob damage

[FireIceTalon]

Imagine trying to take out Invulnerable Minions/Shielding/Illusionist/Extra Health Soul Lasher Champions.

ROFL. I will have nightmares about that combo now. Although I think if you replaced the shielding with Vortex for a ranged char and Molten for a melee, it would be even worse (the shielding wouldnt matter since the minions are invulnerable anyway, though if the master individual of the pack has shielding, that could be a very serious problem). It would be a pretty nasty combo on Phasing Hulkbeasts as well.

[Chesspiece_face]

I havent tried Fracture on teleport yet, will give it a go and see how it works. The cooldown on teleport is quite annoying though, so hope that fracture rune is worth it. I don't have huge confidence in Diamond Skin on hell mode though, I think one hit and its gone, and if you are still on cooldown when that happens, its gg I think. Ill give it a go if i see such a mob again, but can't say I'm very optimistic, although Diamond Skin did save my arse vs Rakinoth on nightmare mode.

Fracture on Teleport is probably the best rune that Wizards have. It's unbelievable. Diamond Skin with the boosted absorbtion rune is also prefectly useful up to and including when the game breaks in Inferno. Prior to A3 Inferno it will still absorb multiple hits on an decently geared Wizard and will definitely absorb one or two BIG hits from super mean mobs IE Berzerkers or Fallen Champions.

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Imagine trying to take out Invulnerable Minions/Shielding/Illusionist/Extra Health Soul Lasher Champions.

ROFL. I will have nightmares about that combo now. Although I think if you replaced the shielding with Vortex for a ranged char and Molten for a melee, it would be even worse (the shielding wouldnt matter since the minions are invulnerable anyway, though if the master individual of the pack has shielding, that could be a very serious problem). It would be a pretty nasty combo on Phasing Hulkbeasts as well.

Nah it's all about Invulnerable Minions/Horde/Mortar/Arcane Enchanted

[MongoJerry]

I havent tried Fracture on teleport yet, will give it a go and see how it works. The cooldown on teleport is quite annoying though, so hope that fracture rune is worth it. I don't have huge confidence in Diamond Skin on hell mode though, I think one hit and its gone, and if you are still on cooldown when that happens, its gg I think. Ill give it a go if i see such a mob again, but can't say I'm very optimistic, although Diamond Skin did save my arse vs Rakinoth on nightmare mode.

Diamond Skin-Crystal Shell is definitely hell viable. I have worries about it in perhaps late Inferno and think it should be made to be a percentage of your health rather than a fixed amount according to your level. But in hell and early Inferno, I don't have any worries about it at all and love it not only in the situation described above but any time you have to cross any kind of dot areas on the ground or just have to face tank a mob. However, other wizards do like their Mirror Images, too, so ymmv.

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The basic game mechanics are mostly fine; the numbers need a little tweaking. The Elites can very easily be stupidly over the top too. Imagine trying to take out Invulnerable Minions/Shielding/Illusionist/Extra Health Soul Lasher Champions. Pure player skill and gear, is it? Yes, it is an absurd example, but it is also one that can indeed occur. Again, this is something that just needs tweaking rather than being a fundamental game issue. Blizzard can resolve these issues, though it would be nice if they were a little more forthcoming with information.

I will agree that Invulnerable Minions is pretty ridiculous, and I'm not convinced that the plan of decreasing the health on the IM boss is going to be enough to fix the problem.

[FireIceTalon]

Ok, I just came across a Champion Soul Lasher pack, and that build did me absolutely no good. And no, I'm not under geared because I can own everything else where I am playing at just fine. This is PURE game mechanics flaws and cheese, and nothing to do with player skill or items.

Also, I think "fast" is now at the top of my list as the most hated affix when playing a ranged char, overtaking the dreaded Vortex even.

[MongoJerry]

Ok, I just came across a Champion Soul Lasher pack, and that build did me absolutely no good. And no, I'm not under geared because I can own everything else where I am playing at just fine. This is PURE game mechanics flaws and cheese, and nothing to do with player skill or items.

Also, I think "fast" is now at the top of my list as the most hated affix when playing a ranged char, overtaking the dreaded Vortex even.

Is your health at at least 35k and armor at at least 4500 (after Energy Armor is applied)? (Mine's at 45k and 5k, respectively in Act 3 hell)

I'm sorry, RedRadical, but I'm able to beat them. I'm not saying they're not a challenge, but you can beat them. It might take some time to get your twitch skills up to speed with using the various defensive skills, though. A lot of the effort with beating lashers and scavengers comes from trying to burn them down as fast as you can. The defensive skills are there in order to buy you time (and get to health globes, if you can). Yes, kiting them doesn't work very well if at all. But distracting them with the fractures and templar, burning them, diamond skinning and burning, hitting health globes and burning, does work.

[Chesspiece_face]

I will agree that Invulnerable Minions is pretty ridiculous, and I'm not convinced that the plan of decreasing the health on the IM boss is going to be enough to fix the problem.

I have no faith in the possibility of balancing Invulnerable Minions in it's present form. Their plan is to reduce the health on the Boss mob but that won't fix the issue. There is no happy medium they can attain. Either the health on the Boss is low enough that the fight becomes trivial or the fight is non-trivial and people will just continue to quit-game the second they see them out of frustration.

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Is your health at at least 35k and armor at at least 4500? (Mine's at 45k and 5k, respectively in Act 3 hell)

I'm sorry, RedRadical, but I'm able to beat them. I'm not saying they're not a challenge, but you can beat them. It might take some time to get your twitch skills up to speed with using the various defensive skills, though. A lot of the effort with beating lashers and scavengers comes from trying to burn them down as fast as you can. The defensive skills are there in order to buy you time (and get to health globes, if you can). Yes, kiting them doesn't work very well if at all. But distracting them with the fractures and templar, burning them, diamond skinning and burning, hitting health globes and burning, does work.

Perfecting the shoot-n-scoot is also a necessity for Lashers. If you move in timing between shots you can avoid most of the tongue attacks.

Also of note looking back over RR's skill set up is that you have no means of snaring enemies. This is a BIG mistake. If you are going to use an arcane orb based build you really need Temporal Flux. Lose Blur at your level and pick that up. Then you will have Arcane Orb and Magic Missle at the very least slowing them by 30% (possibly more if you use Arcane Hydra, which why wouldn't you? If you have no snare to begin with Venom Hydra is nearly useless.) Also whatever Follower you are using do everything in your power to get them a weapon with Cold Damage on it.

[BellaStrega]

For me, the problem with invulnerable minions has primarily been "minions block my ranged attacks." My monk can simply stick to the boss with fists of thunder/thunderclap and has little trouble with that affix. I haven't had to fight IM with a different rune or skill that would require me to actually move toward the enemy, but I imagine it would be more frustrating.

But reduced health on the boss does not fix the problem with IM. The problem with IM is that it exists at all.

[FireIceTalon]

LOL at Blizz not swallowing their pride and just lowering the boss's health. That may help melee chars out, but it does nothing for ranged, which is who IM is really a pain in the ass for.

@Mongo - Yep, health is just over 35k, and armor with FA on is over 5700. DPS about 5200.

Well, I came across another one of these damn packs, this time I managed to kill them w/o even dying once, but I used my other build. I was able to trap them in a room with the Templar as a door shield, and Venom Hydra and Blizzard did the rest, with a little bit of magic missile thrown in. Although, I wonder if this was just a fluke, or if this tactic can work consistently. It's kinda cheesy but so is the time travel speed, dmg, and 3 affixes of Soul Lashers.

[Quark]

LOL at Blizz not swallowing their pride and just lowering the boss's health. That may help melee chars out, but it does nothing for ranged, which is who IM is really a pain in the ass for.

Uh, not really. A melee is always getting hit by all minions with an Invulnerable Minion pack, with no way to reduce damage taken (you're not killing as the fight goes on). It's Soul Lashers that are harder for ranged over melee, not Invulnerable.

Regarding Wizard builds: I've seen quite a few be successful in Act 1 Inferno, at the appropriate gear level (not over geared, which just favors pure DPS).

1) Blizzard/Venom Hydra. The classic kite build, and probably the most common. Best defensive options are Mirror Image / Teleport / Illusionist. Add a burn skill in. I've seen:
Ray of Frost - If single target DPS is your weakness.
Disintegrate - If you have some defense, can take a hit or two, and want pure AoE DPS. Bonus: pierces invul/shield. I love having a helm with -AP cost. This is what I'm typically running.
Arcane Orb - Stutter step casting. Tap the Source (Arcane Orb is too expensive!) or the piercing rune.
Shock Pulse - Piercing Orb - another piercing attack, this one with no AP cost.

The beams work best with a 2H in my experience (resource cost), Arcane Orb can go either way, Shock Pulse wants a 1H.

2) Temporal Flux build. Basically the same as above, but drop Blizzard (probably for Magic Weapon), add Temporal Flux as a passive, and use either Disintegrate or Arcane Orb with a built in snare. I think you need a bit more gear to pull this off, as kiting isn't as easy.

3) Another variation of above drops Illusionist and Mirror Image. You gain Diamond Skin and another passive. Less kitable, but more durable.

4) The hilarious build: Spectral Blade. Yes, you heard right, Spectral Blade. 1H+Source/Shield (Depending on your defenses). The 1H must have Life on Hit, and getting it elsewhere is a help as well. You spec Spectral Blade + Deep Cuts and Meteor (I tried Meteor Shower, but Star Pact seems better). These are your skills because they have a decent coefficient for LoH (unlike most Wizard spells). Deep Cuts allows for more Critical Mass procs. Then your defensives are Stone Skin, then Slow Time or Frost Nova. Add in Magic Weapon for DPS. Hydra for more DPS or another defensive for more survivability.

Yes, a melee Wizard build exists. And it works. Some packs were made more difficult than a kite build, but others I just stood there and took it. It mostly just requires a different gear set (since LoH is so bad for other Wizard builds but so good for this one). I got a cheap blue Source with +Spectral Blade damage to try out some more, but haven't gotten to test it yet.

[RiotInferno]

The wizard build I've been working with (which just got me to Hell, so of course it's been viable so far) is:
Force Armor / Familiar / Magic Weapon / Archon
The only gear-dependent affix that you really need is +% movement speed.
In NM (again, so anything's possible), I was able to clear out 2 levels of the Terminus (A2) in 1 casting of Archon.
In A3, in the levels leading up the fight with Ghlom, I twice received massacre awards for 65+ monsters.

Archon seems like a really really really good skill. I'll hopefully get through Hell by the weekend, so I can give a better report on how this does in Inferno.

[BellaStrega]

LOL at Blizz not swallowing their pride and just lowering the boss's health. That may help melee chars out, but it does nothing for ranged, which is who IM is really a pain in the ass for.

Uh, not really. A melee is always getting hit by all minions with an Invulnerable Minion pack, with no way to reduce damage taken (you're not killing as the fight goes on). It's Soul Lashers that are harder for ranged over melee, not Invulnerable.

I have zero issues with invulnerable minions on my monk. I have more issues with my wizard due to minions intercepting ranged attacks. Fortunately, I mostly use a lot of AoE so the boss takes damage, but it's still more of a pain.

[MongoJerry]

My Temporal Flux build uses Disintegrate-Convergence, Magic Missle - Seeker, and Hydra-Arcane for my offensive skills. For defensive skills, I use Diamond Skin-Crystal Shell, Teleport-Fracture, and Energy Armor - Prismatic or Force depending on the situation. I switch around passives depending on the situation, but most commonly, I use Glass Cannon, Astral Presence, and Temporal Flux.

I'm confused by your comments about Disintegrate needing a 2-hander while not believing Arcane Orb does. They have the same casting cost. I use a 1-hander with shield, because I play hardcore, and the skill works fine. I agree with you that a cost reduction on disintegrate on your helm makes a world of difference, though.

[Tal]

And every single character has abilities to negate or reduce their impact. It's your choice if you use those abilities or not. If you choose not to then those abilities will be a much higher risk for you.

I wouldn't have a problem with that - provided there was a way for me to change to those skills to meet/negate those abilities on the fly.

[MongoJerry]

I wouldn't have a problem with that - provided there was a way for me to change to those skills to meet/negate those abilities on the fly.

That's why you have to think about your build. You should have them built into your build ahead of time.

Or, you could switch into them whenever you come on a new champion pack, but then you'd lose your NV stacks. Your choice.

[Quark]

I'm confused by your comments about Disintegrate needing a 2-hander while not believing Arcane Orb does. They have the same casting cost. I use a 1-hander with shield, because I play hardcore, and the skill works fine. I agree with you that a cost reduction on disintegrate on your helm makes a world of difference, though.

Disintegrate playstyle is more "stand here and fire" - if you run out of AP, you aren't firing. Arcane Orb can stutter step cast. 2H means you get bigger hits in. 1H means you can be on the move more often, so less getting hit. Disregarding defensive stats gained from your offhand, there's an actual trade off (mobility vs damage) for Arcane Orb 2Hvs1H that just doesn't exist for Disintegrate.

[Tal]

That's why you have to think about your build. You should have them built into your build ahead of time.

Or, you could switch into them whenever you come on a new champion pack, but then you'd lose your NV stacks. Your choice.

So I have to pre-plan my build based on monster abilities that I don't know they'll have until I run into them?

[Bolty]

So I have to pre-plan my build based on monster abilities that I don't know they'll have until I run into them?

Well, yes, actually. The whole point of the Nephalem Valor buff that you receive from killing bosses after level 60 (and lose if you change your skills) is that you're forced to pick a skill set that gives you the highest victory rate over all situations.

I mean, my Barbarian doesn't need to have 7 of his 9 skills be defensive-based to survive against white mobs in Inferno difficulty, but he does need that for the boss packs. It would be sweet not to have to carry all those defensive skills around 100% of the time so he could kill things a lot faster, but them's the breaks.

In short, 1-60 is for playing around with skills and specs to see what works and what you like. Once you hit 60, the only way to progress in the game is gear, so it's time to settle into a spec and ride it, at least for a game session at a time.

[ViralSpiral]

Red: Basically, people are suggesting something close to http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wi...dfU!YZYacb although you could swap Arcane Orb in for Disintegrate if the AP cost is alright. Between all the clones, teleports, and Force Armour and all your attacks having built-in snaring, you have pretty much everything a Wizard could want except a big, burly tank to hide behind. Of course no one else has tanks after Inf A2 anyhow, as I read.

[FireIceTalon]

Holy moly, Archon with Arcane Destruction rune is wiiiiicked, haha. Pretty much the Wizard's WoTB go-to spell when facing really tough mobs, or a large number of monsters. Sucks that the cooldown is so long on it but I guess people would just curb stomp through the game because it is amazingly good. I faced a couple huge packs of those scorpion like things in the Heart of Sin quest and got the duration up to over a minute

I prefer Orb over Disintegrate for the most part, because it just seems a more flexible ability to me. It's good for single targets or AoE, and you can kite better with it. I saw someone suggest Frost Nova, but for my playing style Blizzard with Stark Winter rune is utterly superior to me, especially since FN only freezes monsters for a split second, while with Blizzard, they are slowed for a longer period of time (even though not completely immobile) and take much more damage.

[Chesspiece_face]

Red: Basically, people are suggesting something close to http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wi...dfU!YZYacb although you could swap Arcane Orb in for Disintegrate if the AP cost is alright. Between all the clones, teleports, and Force Armour and all your attacks having built-in snaring, you have pretty much everything a Wizard could want except a big, burly tank to hide behind. Of course no one else has tanks after Inf A2 anyhow, as I read.

A well geared Templar can tank single champ mobs in A3 Inferno. The problem really becomes getting him to actually stay put in a doorway to tank it as mostly the mob will just run straight past him and crush your face. And because you are constantly running he is constantly resetting and not attacking the mobs. It's a vicious circle.

As for Wizard builds, I used Disintigrate with the wide beam rune up until midway through act 1 Inferno. It was a fun skill, synergized well with Arcane Hydra/Temporal Flux, and put out lots of damage. After moving further into Inferno I had to drop it for Arcane Orb. Any skill that forces you to stand still to get the greatest benefit becomes too much of a liability in my estimation.

When planning out a ranged character build I always look for a few things. 1. Ability to put out snares. The further you go in the game the more necessary it becomes to keep mobs slowed as close to 100% of the time as possible. 2. At least two defensive cooldowns (not including any passive abilities such as armors for Wizards.) 3. Damage skills that don't lose much effectiveness while moving. This can be something like Hydra which once cast remains 100% effective as long as mobs are in range or a spell like Magic Missle/Seeker which you can fire off between steps and not have to put too much effort into having it hit something. Any remaining skill or passive choices are picked based on necessity and how well they synergize with the rest of the build.