12-08-2006, 07:04 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-08-2006, 06:06 PM by Hammerskjold.)
(I'm having some tech trouble using quotes as well, but I'll try as best as possible anyway. You realize that I'm taking time away from my current Assasin to reply, but since you put a lot of thoughts into this debate it's the least I can do. :)
Your first suggestions of adding 50% monster resist to all elemental and poison, sounds too much like bliz's global solution for a local problem. While I understand your intent is not to cripple the melee part, if past version changes is any indication the result will still be the same.
(edited addition: Here's some builds off the top of my head that winds up paying the cost as well, with that kind of global monster changes. Elemental zealots, melee enchantress, elemental claw assasins, charged strikers, rabid druids, poison dagger necros. In my book they're the type of melee builds that gets to subsidize that proposed change of 'challenge' for ranged\aoe casters. And yes they're meleers to me, even if they don't use a physical attack, since in the context of D2 the type of damage imo isn't the qualifying criteria. Range, and mobility while attacking are more relevant qualifiers.)
You can say well just drop the convict on a stick, and other oskill items, but the same could be applied to skill choices then. Who said anyone has to max out the natural Skill limit? Why not just use a slvl 1 Conviction if you feel that the maxed skill is too powerful?
But we both know that this won't happen anytime soon, at least not in the place where bliz cares the most, and that's online multi.
Dropping oskill items is also a nonstarter imo, even putting aside the fact that bliz for obvious and understandable reasons will probably stick to their word of not making anymore major gameplay changes past 1.10. Let's say for the moment we are in bliz shoes, and we did drop those so called pesky oskill items.
How will that be carried out exactly? Total wipe out will create yet another round of loud complaints from the most vocal customers. 'They took away my hard earned items!!!111' A new, toned down version of the item, while keeping the more powerful older ones can create a dupers market for the old stock. Making global changes, ie instead of tweaking the level range of an oskill item individually, let's just change the Skill itself. It's faster, probably less complicated, and imo it's also a very sloppy way of doing it.
It's a blessing in disguise that Bliz will probably not change anything significant past 1.10, because at least hopefully things won't change for the worse.
You've mentioned I might be 'sour graping', but I'd raise the same objections if it was the other way around. Ie: the only way -any- caster build can progress is to stop using spells, and pick up a stick and brain a monster with it. I don't go all 'YEAAAH! That's the way it should be, score one for meleers!!11'. I have played and enjoyed almost all d2 builds, with each of their distinct strength and weaknesses.
The other thing you mention, if you can't get into the mindset of d2 melee, (and I personally count whirlers and chargers to be a special case, although they hit at melee range they can also move while doing so) then we can't really have a 100% clear communication unfortunately. Since ( and I apologize if I severely misread your writings) your p.o.v and point of reference will be almost always be from the casters eyes, we will not have enough of a common ground to go on.
I mean I think FB has a valid observation about bliz's take on melee in the game series. It's as if they designed it from a caster's point of view. Let's use a powerful melee build here, say a Kicker Assasin. The core build is not very complex, get some Strength, a bit of Dexterity, the rest goes to Vitality. Core skill points is maxed out Dragon Tail.
I've played a few Kickers, and they are quite powerful. But DTalon alone is not what really makes her a melee queen imo. It's the other skills that supplements it, that looks more like caster skills in closer inspection. How about summonable Shadows that can take the heat off the main target ie: you. Combined with a merc, that's 2 meatshields that can bear the brunt. How about Cloak of Shadow, her version of the Necro's DVision. Shuts down ranged attackers fairly well. How about putting a Lawbringer weapon in her hand, so Decrepify can be of benefit. How about something like Cmoon, tasty tasty SField. How about a very economical amp damage weapon, oh wait Amplify Damage is one of those native Necromancer skills.
What I'm saying is looking at it, my personal take is bliz designed all their class templates like this. A melee fighter is someone who has access to caster like skills to boost their few melee skills. And a 'good' meleer is someone who stays out of melee. On one hand it makes sense, obviously in real life something like melee combat is usually very ugly and messy and not something most people would want to do for fun. Keeping in mind that this is suppose to be an action fantasy game, a grim and 'realistic' combat simulator woudn't be appropriate.
But the way bliz designed it, I just get this impression that to them a melee range knife fighter is someone who uses a rifle first, then pulls out the knife to stab the soon to be corpse.
Your first suggestions of adding 50% monster resist to all elemental and poison, sounds too much like bliz's global solution for a local problem. While I understand your intent is not to cripple the melee part, if past version changes is any indication the result will still be the same.
(edited addition: Here's some builds off the top of my head that winds up paying the cost as well, with that kind of global monster changes. Elemental zealots, melee enchantress, elemental claw assasins, charged strikers, rabid druids, poison dagger necros. In my book they're the type of melee builds that gets to subsidize that proposed change of 'challenge' for ranged\aoe casters. And yes they're meleers to me, even if they don't use a physical attack, since in the context of D2 the type of damage imo isn't the qualifying criteria. Range, and mobility while attacking are more relevant qualifiers.)
You can say well just drop the convict on a stick, and other oskill items, but the same could be applied to skill choices then. Who said anyone has to max out the natural Skill limit? Why not just use a slvl 1 Conviction if you feel that the maxed skill is too powerful?
But we both know that this won't happen anytime soon, at least not in the place where bliz cares the most, and that's online multi.
Dropping oskill items is also a nonstarter imo, even putting aside the fact that bliz for obvious and understandable reasons will probably stick to their word of not making anymore major gameplay changes past 1.10. Let's say for the moment we are in bliz shoes, and we did drop those so called pesky oskill items.
How will that be carried out exactly? Total wipe out will create yet another round of loud complaints from the most vocal customers. 'They took away my hard earned items!!!111' A new, toned down version of the item, while keeping the more powerful older ones can create a dupers market for the old stock. Making global changes, ie instead of tweaking the level range of an oskill item individually, let's just change the Skill itself. It's faster, probably less complicated, and imo it's also a very sloppy way of doing it.
It's a blessing in disguise that Bliz will probably not change anything significant past 1.10, because at least hopefully things won't change for the worse.
You've mentioned I might be 'sour graping', but I'd raise the same objections if it was the other way around. Ie: the only way -any- caster build can progress is to stop using spells, and pick up a stick and brain a monster with it. I don't go all 'YEAAAH! That's the way it should be, score one for meleers!!11'. I have played and enjoyed almost all d2 builds, with each of their distinct strength and weaknesses.
The other thing you mention, if you can't get into the mindset of d2 melee, (and I personally count whirlers and chargers to be a special case, although they hit at melee range they can also move while doing so) then we can't really have a 100% clear communication unfortunately. Since ( and I apologize if I severely misread your writings) your p.o.v and point of reference will be almost always be from the casters eyes, we will not have enough of a common ground to go on.
I mean I think FB has a valid observation about bliz's take on melee in the game series. It's as if they designed it from a caster's point of view. Let's use a powerful melee build here, say a Kicker Assasin. The core build is not very complex, get some Strength, a bit of Dexterity, the rest goes to Vitality. Core skill points is maxed out Dragon Tail.
I've played a few Kickers, and they are quite powerful. But DTalon alone is not what really makes her a melee queen imo. It's the other skills that supplements it, that looks more like caster skills in closer inspection. How about summonable Shadows that can take the heat off the main target ie: you. Combined with a merc, that's 2 meatshields that can bear the brunt. How about Cloak of Shadow, her version of the Necro's DVision. Shuts down ranged attackers fairly well. How about putting a Lawbringer weapon in her hand, so Decrepify can be of benefit. How about something like Cmoon, tasty tasty SField. How about a very economical amp damage weapon, oh wait Amplify Damage is one of those native Necromancer skills.
What I'm saying is looking at it, my personal take is bliz designed all their class templates like this. A melee fighter is someone who has access to caster like skills to boost their few melee skills. And a 'good' meleer is someone who stays out of melee. On one hand it makes sense, obviously in real life something like melee combat is usually very ugly and messy and not something most people would want to do for fun. Keeping in mind that this is suppose to be an action fantasy game, a grim and 'realistic' combat simulator woudn't be appropriate.
But the way bliz designed it, I just get this impression that to them a melee range knife fighter is someone who uses a rifle first, then pulls out the knife to stab the soon to be corpse.