11-30-2006, 03:48 AM
>For the most part, "overpowered" skills lie in the caster arsenal. Aside from ridiculous damage weapons,
there isn't much that hacking at something can do that generates the kind of unfairness I was talking about.
Maybe I'm getting our wires crossed here, But I wasn't saying that melee has an overpowering anything. You won't get any disagreement from me that almost all the powerful skills I've seen are either ranged or AoE, or both.
What I'm talking about is imo it's not very accurate to say there's so many overpowered things in the game as a whole, because that's almost a caster-centric point of view. And D2 does have a melee component to it. And looking from various ver. texts, it's almost as if everytime a mostly caster\ranged player complains 'bah this game is sooo easy', it's the melee part that pays for it. Why the hell should melee builds be nearly crippled just so the ranged\casters can have a 'challenge'?
>Crushing Blow comes close, but it's still a damage-based function.
Again I wonder how many melee builds you've seriously tried. Because anyone who has tried at least one melee build in 1.1+ would not say the above seriously, at least in the context of what's considered powerful effects. The only thing that can even come close to the way CB was is Static Field ctc weapons. A magic 'spell', surprise surprise. Only in D2, where a meleer has to turn to magic to become a better fighter. Only in Sanctuary! (insert Don King smilie icon here)
I'm saying this as a player who had 2 Martyrs that made it to Hell mode, one was 1.09 and the other was post. in 1.09 the earlier incarnation can survive ok in some solo 8(but not invincible, more like a medium armored jeep than a supertank), SP, no trade no twink yada yada, and his best weapon was a 'Black' flail. Post 1.10, his particular build was rendered obsolete. There's still a way to play martyrs of course, just not the 1.09 way. This has both good and bad points.
But let's cut to the chase here, if we're seriously comparing what's powerful and overpowered etc, an 8 count game is what we're really talking about. The name of the game mostly becomes who can solo 8? CB isn't bad obviously, but in 1.10 is not what it once was, especially in an 8 count game. Yes, you can have a build and gear combo that has a very high chance for CBlow. But usually for a very hefty sacrifice or price, and you get less of a return for it. The days of surviving on CB alone is pretty much dead imo.
>Melee characters can achieve near-indestructibility,
With what? Awesome top of the line (and a high chance of it being non kosher) gear? Who wouldn't? Very specific skill combinations in very specific situations? I don't mean to sound rude, but come on. It's 'near' the same way the moon is kind of near to the earth. But it's still pretty far away for most people.
(Last I've read Smiters have been getting some hate-o-rade because they can do Uber Tristram fairly well. Kind of reminds me the way Lightning Fury Amazons use to get the same during the heydays of cow level running. It's amazing how one little bonus area becomes the measuring stick for how well a build does in the rest of the levels.)
>but what really throws balance out the window, is that casters, with their obscene damage that effects areas full of foes, can do it BETTER.
Yeah, and how do we nerf the -meleers- to balance this out? Since this is the classic bliz way of handling things it seems.
>Correct, but I'm not talking about the whole game. I'm talking about the unbalanced upper end.
Then it's probably more helpful to point that out earlier. But that unbalanced upper end should not be re-balanced by squashing the melee part. What inconveniences the ranged\casters, can absolutely halt a meleer. This is what I mean when I don't see your point of mentioning something like Conviction being overpowering for elemental druids and such. I don't see a lot of cry for nerfing Enchant because it might boost a Shock Zealot's power.
>Fair enough--what kind of melee builds are overpowered?
Imo, about zero to none. At least in the context of a full 8 game, since it doesn't make sense to measure what's considered overpowering in a lower count game.
>But I stand by my War Cry. It looks pretty innocuous until you start using it.
No one here said a war crier was innocuous or underpowered. (And I had 2 that went to Hell mode. And 2 is enough for my lifetime.) But a war crier is not a melee build, like you previously mention he's much closer to a Nova sorceress and other AoE builds.
> ~5000 life, ridiculous armor, maximized resistances, enemies who can't move or attack, can't hit if they do (Taunt), can't damage if they hit (Taunt again), and probably something I'm forgetting make for an overpowered character in my opinion.
Remove that heavy Warcry specialization for a sec. But keep the rest of what you just said. And drop in oh let's say a dual swing barb. (Which by the way imo is a more accurate picture of what a meleer is. They do their fighting up close and very personal.) Unless you're some sort of D2 savant, those perks you mentioned (high life, high resist,) can instead become a necessity.
You can say you're talking mostly about the aspects that makes things overpowering. And not the whole game. But that high level Battle Order which makes a WarCrier that more powerful, might be much more critical to another build type. They might not need it to become stronger, they might need it to just survive.
So like it or not they are connected, you can certainly focus only on one aspect ('what's overpowered?'), but you won't get an accurate overall picture if that's your only viewpoint.
>Conviction + elemental ranged attack? Nope (Uber Mephisto, various Lightning Enchanted Conviction bosses before absorb/broken resistance caps were available)
Uber Meph and other things like Dclone is not a 'mandatory'. I know it's treated as such sometimes due to it's popularity, the same way the cow level was once. But no one is forced to do them. Unlike say, waypoint hunting.
>--Holy Shield
Does not grant "you aren't hit", but it's close enough not to matter. You should be getting hit maybe 5% of the time at level 90+ (20% to be hit - 20% * 75% block).
Heh, of course that usually goes out the window when an elemental ranged attacker enters the picture. But in 1.10+ there's not a lot of that right? ;)
I'm out of this thread as well, not out of animosity or anything. In fact most of it was enjoyable. But I got a phoenix strike assasin in SP to finish up in Hell mode.
there isn't much that hacking at something can do that generates the kind of unfairness I was talking about.
Maybe I'm getting our wires crossed here, But I wasn't saying that melee has an overpowering anything. You won't get any disagreement from me that almost all the powerful skills I've seen are either ranged or AoE, or both.
What I'm talking about is imo it's not very accurate to say there's so many overpowered things in the game as a whole, because that's almost a caster-centric point of view. And D2 does have a melee component to it. And looking from various ver. texts, it's almost as if everytime a mostly caster\ranged player complains 'bah this game is sooo easy', it's the melee part that pays for it. Why the hell should melee builds be nearly crippled just so the ranged\casters can have a 'challenge'?
>Crushing Blow comes close, but it's still a damage-based function.
Again I wonder how many melee builds you've seriously tried. Because anyone who has tried at least one melee build in 1.1+ would not say the above seriously, at least in the context of what's considered powerful effects. The only thing that can even come close to the way CB was is Static Field ctc weapons. A magic 'spell', surprise surprise. Only in D2, where a meleer has to turn to magic to become a better fighter. Only in Sanctuary! (insert Don King smilie icon here)
I'm saying this as a player who had 2 Martyrs that made it to Hell mode, one was 1.09 and the other was post. in 1.09 the earlier incarnation can survive ok in some solo 8(but not invincible, more like a medium armored jeep than a supertank), SP, no trade no twink yada yada, and his best weapon was a 'Black' flail. Post 1.10, his particular build was rendered obsolete. There's still a way to play martyrs of course, just not the 1.09 way. This has both good and bad points.
But let's cut to the chase here, if we're seriously comparing what's powerful and overpowered etc, an 8 count game is what we're really talking about. The name of the game mostly becomes who can solo 8? CB isn't bad obviously, but in 1.10 is not what it once was, especially in an 8 count game. Yes, you can have a build and gear combo that has a very high chance for CBlow. But usually for a very hefty sacrifice or price, and you get less of a return for it. The days of surviving on CB alone is pretty much dead imo.
>Melee characters can achieve near-indestructibility,
With what? Awesome top of the line (and a high chance of it being non kosher) gear? Who wouldn't? Very specific skill combinations in very specific situations? I don't mean to sound rude, but come on. It's 'near' the same way the moon is kind of near to the earth. But it's still pretty far away for most people.
(Last I've read Smiters have been getting some hate-o-rade because they can do Uber Tristram fairly well. Kind of reminds me the way Lightning Fury Amazons use to get the same during the heydays of cow level running. It's amazing how one little bonus area becomes the measuring stick for how well a build does in the rest of the levels.)
>but what really throws balance out the window, is that casters, with their obscene damage that effects areas full of foes, can do it BETTER.
Yeah, and how do we nerf the -meleers- to balance this out? Since this is the classic bliz way of handling things it seems.
>Correct, but I'm not talking about the whole game. I'm talking about the unbalanced upper end.
Then it's probably more helpful to point that out earlier. But that unbalanced upper end should not be re-balanced by squashing the melee part. What inconveniences the ranged\casters, can absolutely halt a meleer. This is what I mean when I don't see your point of mentioning something like Conviction being overpowering for elemental druids and such. I don't see a lot of cry for nerfing Enchant because it might boost a Shock Zealot's power.
>Fair enough--what kind of melee builds are overpowered?
Imo, about zero to none. At least in the context of a full 8 game, since it doesn't make sense to measure what's considered overpowering in a lower count game.
>But I stand by my War Cry. It looks pretty innocuous until you start using it.
No one here said a war crier was innocuous or underpowered. (And I had 2 that went to Hell mode. And 2 is enough for my lifetime.) But a war crier is not a melee build, like you previously mention he's much closer to a Nova sorceress and other AoE builds.
> ~5000 life, ridiculous armor, maximized resistances, enemies who can't move or attack, can't hit if they do (Taunt), can't damage if they hit (Taunt again), and probably something I'm forgetting make for an overpowered character in my opinion.
Remove that heavy Warcry specialization for a sec. But keep the rest of what you just said. And drop in oh let's say a dual swing barb. (Which by the way imo is a more accurate picture of what a meleer is. They do their fighting up close and very personal.) Unless you're some sort of D2 savant, those perks you mentioned (high life, high resist,) can instead become a necessity.
You can say you're talking mostly about the aspects that makes things overpowering. And not the whole game. But that high level Battle Order which makes a WarCrier that more powerful, might be much more critical to another build type. They might not need it to become stronger, they might need it to just survive.
So like it or not they are connected, you can certainly focus only on one aspect ('what's overpowered?'), but you won't get an accurate overall picture if that's your only viewpoint.
>Conviction + elemental ranged attack? Nope (Uber Mephisto, various Lightning Enchanted Conviction bosses before absorb/broken resistance caps were available)
Uber Meph and other things like Dclone is not a 'mandatory'. I know it's treated as such sometimes due to it's popularity, the same way the cow level was once. But no one is forced to do them. Unlike say, waypoint hunting.
>--Holy Shield
Does not grant "you aren't hit", but it's close enough not to matter. You should be getting hit maybe 5% of the time at level 90+ (20% to be hit - 20% * 75% block).
Heh, of course that usually goes out the window when an elemental ranged attacker enters the picture. But in 1.10+ there's not a lot of that right? ;)
I'm out of this thread as well, not out of animosity or anything. In fact most of it was enjoyable. But I got a phoenix strike assasin in SP to finish up in Hell mode.