10-31-2006, 12:10 AM
(This post was last modified: 10-31-2006, 01:10 AM by Hammerskjold.)
>Non ladder just grows more and more saturated. Nothing breaks. Nothing is even left on the ground after a point. Does it matter if the items are real or counterfeit? Not really. Ethically, maybe, but in practice, that duplicated Zod rune will cost you just as much as the one you KNOW is legitimate.
Here is where I just agree to disagree. The ethics is a side point for me, what's the larger issue for me is the benchmark used is skewed. Because there are many cheaters running around on b.net, someone that plays solo\sp\no-trade should also get hammered by nerfings? That's like saying D1 has too many cheaters wielding a KsoH, so let's severely reduce the drop\vendor rate of KsoHs across the board to punish cheating.
So yes, for me it does matter whether or not those itamz are real or not. Especially in the context of how to measure the drop\quality rate.
>Grand idea, but the problem is you're no longer in Diablo II.
Which is the reason why I said we're getting into a wish list or mod territories.
>Here is what is still enjoyable in Diablo II.
No offense, but that's what -you- find to be enjoyable. Everyone's idea of enjoyment will not likely be identical to yours, or mine for that matter.
>I don't know. I've always been a huge fan of balance, perhaps because I'm (the soul of modesty) more intelligent than most people I come across, which means that given balance, I win.
Look at some of those PvP arcade fighting game, something like Virtua Fighter\Tekken etc. They're striving for some sort of dynamic balance, but that's not all they're striving for. They also have a bit of a random factor, some players dismiss them as desperation button mashing moves, but they're not there by accident.
I think the makers and players do want some measure of uncertainty, call it the underdog factor. Too much of 'balance' would make it boring, almost no one really wants a permanent champion. (Whether or not that champ is a character or a player.) Too much randomness, then anyone that has even a thimble of potential would see it as a game that requires no skill, and has little meaning.
Though I don't know what you're point is with the intelligence thing. Intelligence can be a great factor, but not the only factor. I've remembered more than one matches of various games in arcades (ah mispent youth) that should've went to the smarter guy, but instead went to the player who either practiced a hell lot more, or by doing something unexpected. Something that might not be considered 'intelligent', but certainly would qualify as cunning. (though still clearly outside of cheating.)
>The mark of a good PvP game is one that I (or rather, someone who is good at it), can grab any character, race, weapon, or other variable you want to name, and consistently beat all comers. Maybe not 100%, but it should be at least three quarters of the time.
Well if we're agreeing, why are we arguing about it? ;) On a more serious note though, D2 was a slightly better PvP affair than D1 imo, but not by a huge margin. It didn't really need to be, because it never claimed it was only about that one facet.
> but they were challenges to be overcome, more deadly than any monster, and only with careful progression, equipment selection, and character building could I actually complete the game.
There's another thing that made the Diablo series addictive imo, there is no actual 'completion'. Yeah there's max character level and what not, the highest difficulty mode and bonus areas, whatever personal goal\limitation you've set, and the cinematics and storyline.
But I think a large measure of completion is really up to the player. At it's best I call it a spiral (whether it's spiralling up or down is a matter of perspective), Pete is probably a bit more cynical but closer to the truth when he calls it a merry go round.
So the fun might not be in the challenge and careful planning and execution all the time, sometimes people just want to go for a fun ride and not care about whether or not they can steer the direction. As long as the sight is pretty and the ride moves along.
edited addition: It's a testament to Blizzard's polishing skill that they were able to shine a concept that is essentially this http://members.aol.com/warlordhaanz/SimpleRPG2.html
Here is where I just agree to disagree. The ethics is a side point for me, what's the larger issue for me is the benchmark used is skewed. Because there are many cheaters running around on b.net, someone that plays solo\sp\no-trade should also get hammered by nerfings? That's like saying D1 has too many cheaters wielding a KsoH, so let's severely reduce the drop\vendor rate of KsoHs across the board to punish cheating.
So yes, for me it does matter whether or not those itamz are real or not. Especially in the context of how to measure the drop\quality rate.
>Grand idea, but the problem is you're no longer in Diablo II.
Which is the reason why I said we're getting into a wish list or mod territories.
>Here is what is still enjoyable in Diablo II.
No offense, but that's what -you- find to be enjoyable. Everyone's idea of enjoyment will not likely be identical to yours, or mine for that matter.
>I don't know. I've always been a huge fan of balance, perhaps because I'm (the soul of modesty) more intelligent than most people I come across, which means that given balance, I win.
Look at some of those PvP arcade fighting game, something like Virtua Fighter\Tekken etc. They're striving for some sort of dynamic balance, but that's not all they're striving for. They also have a bit of a random factor, some players dismiss them as desperation button mashing moves, but they're not there by accident.
I think the makers and players do want some measure of uncertainty, call it the underdog factor. Too much of 'balance' would make it boring, almost no one really wants a permanent champion. (Whether or not that champ is a character or a player.) Too much randomness, then anyone that has even a thimble of potential would see it as a game that requires no skill, and has little meaning.
Though I don't know what you're point is with the intelligence thing. Intelligence can be a great factor, but not the only factor. I've remembered more than one matches of various games in arcades (ah mispent youth) that should've went to the smarter guy, but instead went to the player who either practiced a hell lot more, or by doing something unexpected. Something that might not be considered 'intelligent', but certainly would qualify as cunning. (though still clearly outside of cheating.)
>The mark of a good PvP game is one that I (or rather, someone who is good at it), can grab any character, race, weapon, or other variable you want to name, and consistently beat all comers. Maybe not 100%, but it should be at least three quarters of the time.
Well if we're agreeing, why are we arguing about it? ;) On a more serious note though, D2 was a slightly better PvP affair than D1 imo, but not by a huge margin. It didn't really need to be, because it never claimed it was only about that one facet.
> but they were challenges to be overcome, more deadly than any monster, and only with careful progression, equipment selection, and character building could I actually complete the game.
There's another thing that made the Diablo series addictive imo, there is no actual 'completion'. Yeah there's max character level and what not, the highest difficulty mode and bonus areas, whatever personal goal\limitation you've set, and the cinematics and storyline.
But I think a large measure of completion is really up to the player. At it's best I call it a spiral (whether it's spiralling up or down is a matter of perspective), Pete is probably a bit more cynical but closer to the truth when he calls it a merry go round.
So the fun might not be in the challenge and careful planning and execution all the time, sometimes people just want to go for a fun ride and not care about whether or not they can steer the direction. As long as the sight is pretty and the ride moves along.
edited addition: It's a testament to Blizzard's polishing skill that they were able to shine a concept that is essentially this http://members.aol.com/warlordhaanz/SimpleRPG2.html