Jester,Dec 29 2005, 09:57 PM Wrote:To me, the argument that there must be a first cause is roughly equivalent to the argument that there must be a first odd integer. There is nothing, logically speaking, that forbids an infinite series. Perhaps it is not infinite. But you would have to demonstrate that it has a limit, you cannot simply assume it.May it not correctly be said that nothing created may be infinite, or eternal? Consider if it were possible for something created to be eternal: Suppose one thing is created at some given time and it endures forever. Later, another thing is created that too endures forever. Both endure forever, but since one was created before the other one has endured longer, but both have endured forever, so the contradiction becomes evident that forever is found to be longer than forever.
Yes. And I'm saying you have no proof, from argument or evidence, that the universe has a cause, except to say that *everything* has a cause, which negates the possibility of a "first cause."
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But let me try to answer your other objections; and I hope my striving for brevity hasn't in the past engendered error and caused misunderstanding. You are correct, to say that if everything has a cause would contradict the existence of an un-caused cause; but, to say that everything casued has a cause would, I think, not. The question then is What has a cause and what doesn't? Let us do as you suggest and not rely upon unfounded assumptions, but seek proof from argument and evidence.
Would you agree that the universe exists in time?
Would you agree that time may not exist without motion?
Would you agree that it is evidently and logically a property of the universe that it is possessed of motion ("E pur si move")?
Would you agree that all motion has a cause?
Would you agree that the universe could not have caused its own motion because before there was motion there was no time and therefore no universe?