07-30-2005, 04:14 PM
Some others have responded, but I'm chiming in anyway. :P ;)
I agree completely with what Darian said for these two questions. It does depend on group composition, critter composition and just what the fight is going to be. Also, your tank damned well better know just how many elites vs. non-elites are going to be in a pull. If the tank isn't the puller and (for some reason) doesn't peek at the upcoming pull to tell that, the puller must relay that information before the pull starts, but the tank needs to know more than the puller does about the upcoming pull. The tank needs to know what's going to be CCd, what's going to be AoEd, how many elites, how many non-elites that still eat the cloth wearers in record time (stupid demon dogs <_< ), is that caster going to be silenced. The puller and group leader need to relay all the information to the tank. To make this easier, it's frequently the tank that is placed into the leader and puller roles (unless the tank is new to the instance and someone else in the party is very familiar with the place).
I'll demonstrate why the tank needs to know the pull before the pull with a little story. My first raid ever was a Baron run, part lurker mostly pick-up. The puller/tank would yell "shackle the elites" and then pull almost immediately afterwards. Now Aleri, not ever having been in there and not knowing what critters were elite and which weren't, couldn't shackle in a timely manner because of trying to figure out what was elite and what wasn't by having to mouse over everything. By the time I had a shackle target, it was in the fray and getting damaged so no shackle on it. Everyone took more damage because that elite was shut up earlier in the fight. Now imagine if your tank had to scramble after the pull to see what was elite or not. The tank must always know what is elite and what isn't before the pull. Unexpected adds are another story, but for a pull, it's necessary for the tank to know.
Again, it just depends. In some cases, they are so the way to go. The beginning of UBRS goes much faster if you can AoE the hell out of it (yeah, I slipped in raid instead of just sticking to 5 man for an example. Still holds true). Other times, the only thing casting AoEs will do is get your mage(s) on the top of the hate list and then dead in very short order and at the time of mage death, all the critters are still alive. When in doubt, don't AoE unless instructed to though. If you've been noticing your tank having real issues with keeping aggro, generally don't AoE unless it's all non-elite, non-ouchy critters and you've warned your healer. ;) And even then, it's still a judgement call. ;) Most complaints against mages are because they are too quick on the AoE and aren't that good at judging when to AoE and when not to.
Back when Hit (warrior), Kaldralen (warlock), and Bristiana (mage) were little we decided to take on the pre-instance portion of the deadmines with just the three of us. We were pretty much level appropriate, maybe a little higher. I don't quite remember. We were big enough for the warlock to have the first rank of rain of fire though. :) Hit was a bit concerned about taking on the groups of elite undead without a healer on board, but he was willing to try anyway. We let him get aggro, lock down all the targets that came, we then AoEd the hell out of it. There were no deaths and even though everything was elite in there and quickly spawning, AoE was the way to go. Neither Bristiana nor Kal got hit that often when we were AoEing. Unfortunately, having Hit in front of me spoiled me horribly. I think he was also in front of Pepperi when I went into the deadmines with her, but it may have been someone else who was good because Pepperi could AoE in there too. The next deadmines run I did with Bristiana, the tank couldn't lock down the critters' attention as well as the other tanks did so I'd AoE too early and ended up dead. So I just stopped AoEing at all for the rest of the run, which didn't make me happy, but oh well. I had to learn that not all tanks know how to hold aggro on multiple critters that early in their career. Ruvanal informed me that Littledude wasn't allowed to AoE in an instance until later on in LD's career.
So, after that rambling, it's best to say at the beginning "Don't AoE until the tank says it's ok". If you notice your tank is just a tool anyway, be prepared for an annoying and/or frustrating instance anyway. ;)
bkelly1984,Jul 29 2005, 02:54 PM Wrote:Hmm, interesting Treesh. Let me ask you several questions on this.
<snip>
2) In your opinion, how often should a group do an AoE fight? If a well-rounded group of five (one mage say) encountered 5 mobs, I think almost everyone would agree that AoE should be used if all five are non-elite. Would you still recommend an AoE fight if 1 mob were elite? What about two? Three?
3) I gave the AoE call to the puller because he or she may be the only one to see the mobs un-aggroed and have the time to check their elite/non-elite status. If the tank were to make this call, how would he or she know the number of elites that needed to be tanked?[right][snapback]84607[/snapback][/right]
I agree completely with what Darian said for these two questions. It does depend on group composition, critter composition and just what the fight is going to be. Also, your tank damned well better know just how many elites vs. non-elites are going to be in a pull. If the tank isn't the puller and (for some reason) doesn't peek at the upcoming pull to tell that, the puller must relay that information before the pull starts, but the tank needs to know more than the puller does about the upcoming pull. The tank needs to know what's going to be CCd, what's going to be AoEd, how many elites, how many non-elites that still eat the cloth wearers in record time (stupid demon dogs <_< ), is that caster going to be silenced. The puller and group leader need to relay all the information to the tank. To make this easier, it's frequently the tank that is placed into the leader and puller roles (unless the tank is new to the instance and someone else in the party is very familiar with the place).
I'll demonstrate why the tank needs to know the pull before the pull with a little story. My first raid ever was a Baron run, part lurker mostly pick-up. The puller/tank would yell "shackle the elites" and then pull almost immediately afterwards. Now Aleri, not ever having been in there and not knowing what critters were elite and which weren't, couldn't shackle in a timely manner because of trying to figure out what was elite and what wasn't by having to mouse over everything. By the time I had a shackle target, it was in the fray and getting damaged so no shackle on it. Everyone took more damage because that elite was shut up earlier in the fight. Now imagine if your tank had to scramble after the pull to see what was elite or not. The tank must always know what is elite and what isn't before the pull. Unexpected adds are another story, but for a pull, it's necessary for the tank to know.
bkelly1984,Jul 29 2005, 02:54 PM Wrote:4) How effective do you find AoE battles? I agree that they can eliminate an group quickly, but are almost always followed by a lot of downtime. Including downtime would you say the tougher AoE battles are 25% faster?
Thanks for the suggestion Treesh,
Brian
[right][snapback]84607[/snapback][/right]
Again, it just depends. In some cases, they are so the way to go. The beginning of UBRS goes much faster if you can AoE the hell out of it (yeah, I slipped in raid instead of just sticking to 5 man for an example. Still holds true). Other times, the only thing casting AoEs will do is get your mage(s) on the top of the hate list and then dead in very short order and at the time of mage death, all the critters are still alive. When in doubt, don't AoE unless instructed to though. If you've been noticing your tank having real issues with keeping aggro, generally don't AoE unless it's all non-elite, non-ouchy critters and you've warned your healer. ;) And even then, it's still a judgement call. ;) Most complaints against mages are because they are too quick on the AoE and aren't that good at judging when to AoE and when not to.
Back when Hit (warrior), Kaldralen (warlock), and Bristiana (mage) were little we decided to take on the pre-instance portion of the deadmines with just the three of us. We were pretty much level appropriate, maybe a little higher. I don't quite remember. We were big enough for the warlock to have the first rank of rain of fire though. :) Hit was a bit concerned about taking on the groups of elite undead without a healer on board, but he was willing to try anyway. We let him get aggro, lock down all the targets that came, we then AoEd the hell out of it. There were no deaths and even though everything was elite in there and quickly spawning, AoE was the way to go. Neither Bristiana nor Kal got hit that often when we were AoEing. Unfortunately, having Hit in front of me spoiled me horribly. I think he was also in front of Pepperi when I went into the deadmines with her, but it may have been someone else who was good because Pepperi could AoE in there too. The next deadmines run I did with Bristiana, the tank couldn't lock down the critters' attention as well as the other tanks did so I'd AoE too early and ended up dead. So I just stopped AoEing at all for the rest of the run, which didn't make me happy, but oh well. I had to learn that not all tanks know how to hold aggro on multiple critters that early in their career. Ruvanal informed me that Littledude wasn't allowed to AoE in an instance until later on in LD's career.
So, after that rambling, it's best to say at the beginning "Don't AoE until the tank says it's ok". If you notice your tank is just a tool anyway, be prepared for an annoying and/or frustrating instance anyway. ;)
Intolerant monkey.