chippydip,Jul 21 2005, 03:38 PM Wrote:I remembered seeing two 10% numbers in the skill description and thought that one of those was the aggro bonus. Turns out this is not the case (those two numbers are for reduces damage to tank and reduces damage to mobs... it just says that aggro is increased, but not by how much). I checked allakhazam and found this interesting tidbit, though. It appears that the aggro bonus in defensive stance may actually be 30%, which means the defiance talent could boost this up to 45% which is a huge overall aggro boost for only a little lost damage. I'm not sure where they got this number from, but I suppose it can't be any less accurate that the 10% figure I pulled out of thin air ;)
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I too looked at the numbers in the defensive tooltip wrong on what they actually said. Looking at what was listed on Allakhazam and the numbers listed by lemekim from Thottbot; it appears that these are values pulled from dataming dig into some of the files. Presumably Blizzard has not gone to the trouble of putting fake numbers for these on the client while using a different set internally on the server. Some initial testing at setting up some base line data using the fewest skills possible (non-skilled damage vs. healing/damage from second particapiant should show the accuracy of this). Looking through the list of values that can be seen from link that Olon97 provided we would have:
no stance and most characters base rate of hate generation = 100%
warrior battle stance and berserker stances = 80%
warrior defensive stance and druid bear stance = 130%
Rogue Passive (DND) = 80%
This last one concerns me because of the (DND) listing at the end. This type of notation may be indicating something that was not in the final game implementation and should be tested to see if it really is there. I suspect it is. There were also some interesting listing for a couple of pet skills that are not actually in the game from what I can see at this point.
Now this value of a base 130% hate generation in defensive stance has some strong implications on what was listed earlier in this topic. Most specifically this...
chippydip Wrote:Assuming Defiance stacks with in inate threat bonus of Defensive Stance (which is obviously should) we have a total bonus for the warrior of 25% and total reduction for the priest of 20%. Let work through this step-by-step to make it easier to point out errors if I mess something up:
From Cop's testing, we have the following conversion factor:
1 damage = 4.1 hate
1 healing = 1 hate
now, let's remove the effect from above:
1 damage = 4.1 hate / 1.25 = 3.28 hate
1 healing = 1 hate / 0.8 = 1.25 hate
We can look and see that these numbers make sense (warrior is generating less hate and priest is generating more without talents) and we can run the numbers backwards just to be sure:
1 damage = 3.28 hate * 1.25 = 4.1 hate (check)
1 healing = 1.25 hate * 0.8 = 1 hate (check)
Now, if we try and renormalize, like you did, we get:
3.28 / 1.25 = 2.624 healing per damage
if we redefine 1 damage = 1 aggro, then 1 healing = 0.38 aggro
Adjusting for a base hate of 130%+15% (for defiance) instead of the total 125% listed in the quote, we have intead:
From Cop's testing, we have the following conversion factor:
1 damage = 4.1 hate
1 healing = 1 hate
now, let's remove the effect from above:
1 damage = 4.1 hate / 1.45 = 2.83 hate
1 healing = 1 hate / 0.8 = 1.25 hate
Now, if we try and renormalize, like you did, we get:
2.83 / 1.25 = 2.262 healing per damage
if we redefine 1 damage = 1 hate, then 1 healing = 0.442 hate
Close to half and suspiciously close considering we are starting with Cop's conclusion values and do not have the raw data to work with to see if it may actually fit better. If the game is just using whole integers and having the healing operate at 50% effect, then truncation might be enough to explain the discrepency between 0.5 and 0.442 considering Cop's realatively small number of samples on most tests (5 runs each).
If we assume that 0.442 is a fairly accurate number though, then it would be interesting to see what the various graduations of powers of two yield to see what might be the finest level of hate the game might be using instead of just whole numbers. From that we would have:
1/1 = 0.442
1/2 = 0.884
1/4 = 1.768
1/8 = 3.537 (note I am retaining a higher degree of calcuation to use rather than what I have been listing.)
1/16 = 7.073 <- looks promising and in my opinion a more likely scale than I listed in the earlier post.
1/32 = 14.146
1/64 = 28.293
1/128 = 56.585
1/256 = 113.171
Of these only the 1/16 scale looks very promising and as such I lean now more toward the hate being only tracked in integers with no fraction adjustments. This would have various truncation effects that would tend to not be very large when the damages and healing being tossed out are in fairly large amounts (over 30 points in both cases) and would likely only show up as variations like the 0.442 verses an expected 0.500 when using small samples that have been predigested. Testing using baby characters running around the starting areas and using some of the lowest damage and healing effects will likely be able to show the truncation or lack of it more easily then with testing using higher level or capped characters.
Revisiting my earlier example of hate generation and instead using a '1 damage=1 hate' and 'healing = (heal amount)/2 hate' with only interger values used; we would have this instead:
Base low damage of 30 points used prior to stance adjustment.
Hate for battle stance no talents
30* (100-20) /100=
2400 /100 = 24 hate
hate for defensive stance no talents
(30*(100-10)/100) * (100+30) /100 =
(30*90/100) * (130) /100 =
27 * 130 /100 =
3510/100 = 35 hate
hate for defensive stance and full defiance talent.
(30*(100-10)/100) * (100+30+15) /100 =
27* 145 /100 =
3915 /100 = 39 hate
Note that while the defensive stance gives a noticeable more hate in this case than the battlestance, the damage numbers are not really that good for comparison. Most players that are going for using battle stance and berserker stance are using arms/fury builds and their weapon choices are usually 2handed weapons or dual wielding weapons. Both of those cases usually have about 50% more damage going for them compared to the 1handed weapon and shield combo that the defensive warrior would be using. Using a higher damage of 45 (30*150%) for the first example will instead yield:
45* (100-20) /100=
3600 /100 = 36 hate
Which in turn can show part of why some warriors can seem to do just as well at holding aggro while in battle stance compared to just using a defense stance and shield set up. The bigger difference starts coming when looking a the amount of healing that said warriors need compared to their defensive speced counterparts.