07-13-2005, 08:01 PM
I don't want to derail this thread and I believe that warlocks suffer from more bugs than any other class in the game, but were any of the classes besides the warrior, mage and priest finished for release? And even then there have been a lot of warrior changes. The paladin hasn't seen many but find a paladin player who thinks the class works the way it currently is implemented or doesn't long to be able to do something else with the class even if they know what uses it has. :)
And while I agree this isn't a good model to run on for a game, I wonder how it compares to other MMO's. How often were classes really retooled in those games? Heck I wonder if there is data on bug rates for any type of MMO. Blizzard is notorius for making major changes to games after release so the WoW treatment isn't unexpected for me. It's their strength and thier weakness at the same time. Diablo 1 was bug ridden and patched a lot. Starcraft, Warcraft 3, Diablo 2 (and their expansions) were all the same way. They all had patches that changed the game dynamic significantly. They all still kept a good fun factor though and most of the issues could be dealt with without too much hassle. Some of the changes were very good things that would not have been obvious to change without a huge player base. Some of the changes still seem moronic and of the nature of "we know what you like to do best". So they do listen to the users (look at the evolution of the UI, though they still have a lot of work there) and they stll blow the users off. Strength and weakness.
I realize the angst is that we are paying a monthly fee for this game so we should expect more. But I still think they are in the cost recovery phase on this game. It will take more initial debt to get more coders (and they are hiring all the time now) so that throwing more money at it can actually solve the problems, even then with this much code more man power can still only do so much, so some of these issues just can't be fixed even with the money they bring in. I think they can and should do better. I just don't find any of it unexpected so it doesn't bother me that much. The fact that the game isn't that hard means most of the bugs that are left in can be dealt with. They have brought the servers down to fix some game breakers at times too, so they do acknowledge that.
I'm ignoring that many of the bugs in 1.6 were reported while it was in test for this argument. That is something that people should get mad at; why even test the patch if you don't change anything with it? Of course people say that 1.5 was being tested for too long but they did fix some reported bugs in that one, so Blizzard still loses with a release of the patch or without one. But anyway I'm not discussing that point in this next bit.
What is game breaking in this game? What justifies angering part of your customer base by not having the servers up? I'll look at the current list of bugs.
Mage sheep bug? Horrible in PvP. The rumored bug that fear ward is up for 10 minutes and doesn't go away after it gets hit once, grounding totems lasting a lot longer in PvP than they used too. Those are all big bugs. Are those worth an early server take down? PvE population isn't hurt by them at all (in fact they are helped by two of them if they happen in PvE). From my personal perspective I would rather see the servers left up than taking them down to fix these bugs. Of course there are more PvP players than PvE (high pops on the PvP servers and the people that PvP on the PvE servers) so I would be much less annoyed at a server take down to fix these and am actually expecting one if these are all true.
Some of the other bugs in this thread; my lock build and play style doesn't use an imp hardly at all right now. I'm not happy about the bugs/changes with them but it certanly isn't a big deal for me, hurts a lock in PvP again though and annoys the heck out of one the fist time he tries to use dark pact with a shifted imp. The master conjurer bug seems like it helps some players, most players won't consider that game breaking even in PvP I don't think. The summon party/raid mates thing while very annoying only affects players who have a lock in their group. 80%+ of my groups don't have a lock in them and I play a lock at times.
Is it worth taking away play time and upsetting all the warriors, paladins, shaman, druids, rogues, priests, mages and hunters these bugs don't effect or marginally effect? On the summon one, yeah that one might be to me because of the major annoyance it might cause me if I was trying to get the summons or summon someone (especially if it eats the shard when it fails), I think getting rid of that potential annnoyance out weighs the annoyance I get when servers are down and I don't want them to be. :) But the rest of my personal feelings are leave the servers up and fix them later. I felt the same way about the charge bug that affected me more than anyone else I know starting with 1.4, while it pissed me off it wasn't something I couldn't wait till the next patch to fix. Of course 1.5 didn't fix it and I don't know about 1.6.
If Blizzard knew about the bugs that really affect PvP before patching I'm really pissed about that. If they couldn't get them fixed in one more weeks time, not so much I'm still happy about getting to fix the problems I had with my warrior talent choices at no real additional cost (71s 10c for getting the rank ups of shield slam) and getting a new skill to replace a really really crappy one. The bugs that only really affect PvE in some way are even less likely to be a good idea to fix first or take a server down for.
The sheep, fear ward, and grounding totem are the closest to game breaking I can see right now. They can radically alter a PvP or PvE encounter, even if the alteration is a benefit for players on the PvE side. Most class bugs though just don't justify getting extra anger from players over down servers or the extra anger at not patching out the current bug that is annoying them sooner.
I'm glad I'm not the one who has to decide if a patch should go out now or when to take the servers down for an emergency maintenance. You're servicing millions of customers with this game and you will always have some percentage pissed off at you no matter what. Some actions are more likely to piss off more people than others, one of those being taking servers down, expected or not. Not fixing known bugs seems to generate more "aggro" than introducing new ones for the majority of people as well. So of course 1.6 is a double whammy here since they introduced known bugs, that puts them higher on my hate list. :)
Just wanted to ramble about some of this. I don't think my monthly fee is being wasted. I do see improvements from Blizzard in some areas. I want to see more improvements, especially on the communication side of things (GM's and game info). The "leaked" patch notes are a good thing, though I'd be a little happier with a flat out, hey this is what we are looking at right now. Of course "leaking" them makes you less liable if you deviate from that set of information.
So anyway, yeah just wanted to put that out there. :)
And while I agree this isn't a good model to run on for a game, I wonder how it compares to other MMO's. How often were classes really retooled in those games? Heck I wonder if there is data on bug rates for any type of MMO. Blizzard is notorius for making major changes to games after release so the WoW treatment isn't unexpected for me. It's their strength and thier weakness at the same time. Diablo 1 was bug ridden and patched a lot. Starcraft, Warcraft 3, Diablo 2 (and their expansions) were all the same way. They all had patches that changed the game dynamic significantly. They all still kept a good fun factor though and most of the issues could be dealt with without too much hassle. Some of the changes were very good things that would not have been obvious to change without a huge player base. Some of the changes still seem moronic and of the nature of "we know what you like to do best". So they do listen to the users (look at the evolution of the UI, though they still have a lot of work there) and they stll blow the users off. Strength and weakness.
I realize the angst is that we are paying a monthly fee for this game so we should expect more. But I still think they are in the cost recovery phase on this game. It will take more initial debt to get more coders (and they are hiring all the time now) so that throwing more money at it can actually solve the problems, even then with this much code more man power can still only do so much, so some of these issues just can't be fixed even with the money they bring in. I think they can and should do better. I just don't find any of it unexpected so it doesn't bother me that much. The fact that the game isn't that hard means most of the bugs that are left in can be dealt with. They have brought the servers down to fix some game breakers at times too, so they do acknowledge that.
I'm ignoring that many of the bugs in 1.6 were reported while it was in test for this argument. That is something that people should get mad at; why even test the patch if you don't change anything with it? Of course people say that 1.5 was being tested for too long but they did fix some reported bugs in that one, so Blizzard still loses with a release of the patch or without one. But anyway I'm not discussing that point in this next bit.
What is game breaking in this game? What justifies angering part of your customer base by not having the servers up? I'll look at the current list of bugs.
Mage sheep bug? Horrible in PvP. The rumored bug that fear ward is up for 10 minutes and doesn't go away after it gets hit once, grounding totems lasting a lot longer in PvP than they used too. Those are all big bugs. Are those worth an early server take down? PvE population isn't hurt by them at all (in fact they are helped by two of them if they happen in PvE). From my personal perspective I would rather see the servers left up than taking them down to fix these bugs. Of course there are more PvP players than PvE (high pops on the PvP servers and the people that PvP on the PvE servers) so I would be much less annoyed at a server take down to fix these and am actually expecting one if these are all true.
Some of the other bugs in this thread; my lock build and play style doesn't use an imp hardly at all right now. I'm not happy about the bugs/changes with them but it certanly isn't a big deal for me, hurts a lock in PvP again though and annoys the heck out of one the fist time he tries to use dark pact with a shifted imp. The master conjurer bug seems like it helps some players, most players won't consider that game breaking even in PvP I don't think. The summon party/raid mates thing while very annoying only affects players who have a lock in their group. 80%+ of my groups don't have a lock in them and I play a lock at times.
Is it worth taking away play time and upsetting all the warriors, paladins, shaman, druids, rogues, priests, mages and hunters these bugs don't effect or marginally effect? On the summon one, yeah that one might be to me because of the major annoyance it might cause me if I was trying to get the summons or summon someone (especially if it eats the shard when it fails), I think getting rid of that potential annnoyance out weighs the annoyance I get when servers are down and I don't want them to be. :) But the rest of my personal feelings are leave the servers up and fix them later. I felt the same way about the charge bug that affected me more than anyone else I know starting with 1.4, while it pissed me off it wasn't something I couldn't wait till the next patch to fix. Of course 1.5 didn't fix it and I don't know about 1.6.
If Blizzard knew about the bugs that really affect PvP before patching I'm really pissed about that. If they couldn't get them fixed in one more weeks time, not so much I'm still happy about getting to fix the problems I had with my warrior talent choices at no real additional cost (71s 10c for getting the rank ups of shield slam) and getting a new skill to replace a really really crappy one. The bugs that only really affect PvE in some way are even less likely to be a good idea to fix first or take a server down for.
The sheep, fear ward, and grounding totem are the closest to game breaking I can see right now. They can radically alter a PvP or PvE encounter, even if the alteration is a benefit for players on the PvE side. Most class bugs though just don't justify getting extra anger from players over down servers or the extra anger at not patching out the current bug that is annoying them sooner.
I'm glad I'm not the one who has to decide if a patch should go out now or when to take the servers down for an emergency maintenance. You're servicing millions of customers with this game and you will always have some percentage pissed off at you no matter what. Some actions are more likely to piss off more people than others, one of those being taking servers down, expected or not. Not fixing known bugs seems to generate more "aggro" than introducing new ones for the majority of people as well. So of course 1.6 is a double whammy here since they introduced known bugs, that puts them higher on my hate list. :)
Just wanted to ramble about some of this. I don't think my monthly fee is being wasted. I do see improvements from Blizzard in some areas. I want to see more improvements, especially on the communication side of things (GM's and game info). The "leaked" patch notes are a good thing, though I'd be a little happier with a flat out, hey this is what we are looking at right now. Of course "leaking" them makes you less liable if you deviate from that set of information.
So anyway, yeah just wanted to put that out there. :)
---
It's all just zeroes and ones and duct tape in the end.
It's all just zeroes and ones and duct tape in the end.