03-03-2005, 12:15 AM
Note: This post got really long as I wrote it, just as a fair warning :whistling:
Yes, that is where the last point was supposed to go, somehow it got lost in me recopying information a few times.
This argument took about a millisecond to sway me. This is my second char I have played extensively and I have seen a lot of the end game instances (haven't hit raids like Onyxia or MC yet though) and it seems that you are highly likely to expend those two blocks in the first 5.5 seconds anyway, especially considering that you will have multiple mobs beating on you. Two more points to work with :)
Minor nit first, talents can only give you +5% parry or crit, still the point is taken. I'll have to admit I'm not as well versed in high level plate items as I am in cloth but my intuition says that if I get those items that give me +defense (which I know can blow anticipation out of the water) I will lose some stamina and agility or strength in exchange. I still see your point though.
Knowing this information tells me that I definitely have two more points I can redistribute and possibly up to 7. My gut reaction is that I should reallocate all 7 as the benefit of anticipation might not be as much as I first anticipated (I looked at it as a way to be on "equal" footing with those level 62 elites in the end game). There are a few options I see but I'm not really sure about them...
1.) You mention going for Last Stand and Improved Shield Bash.
I'm still having trouble seeing exactly where I am going to use last stand a lot (probably my inexperience) It seems to me like this would most often be used if you are losing hps a bit quickly (or got unlucky with a string of critical hits) and you want to buy your healer more time to heal you. Because the benefit is temporary and goes away after the 20 seconds is up you must be healed in that time or you are going down. I can understand that sometimes that 20 seconds can buy enough time for the party to recover from When Things Go Wrong ™ and that if you use it in a situation where you are not dangerously low on life it will probably amount to "no harm no foul" but I'm not sure exactly how useful it would be. One of you high level warriors must have some insight into how to use this skill effectively and I'd really love to hear it. If I can understand how to use it properly I could be very easily swayed to pick it up.
Imp. Shield Bash is also a bit questionable to me but again it might be an experience thing. Thus far I have run into few enemies who cast from multiple schools of magic. Due to this fact a simple shield bash is usually enough to shut them up for a few seconds while I lay the smackdown on them. If they are lucky they get one spell off before I bash them again. This combined with concussion blow (and potentially pummel) would lead me to believe that in controlled situations casters are certainly manageable. I see two potential issues:
- Later casters more commonly cast from multiple schools of magic so a complete silence is worthwhile.
- Casters have more instant cast spells that I haven't dealt extensively with yet and by the nature of regular shield bash these are almost unstoppable. Still I think this point is lessened if those instant cast spells are in the same school of magic as their longer cast spells unless the mob mostly or exclusively casts instants.
Once again I could be easily convinced, but I haven't seen the smoking gun yet.
2.) Artega mentioned in his post going for Anger Management. At first this looks like an excellent skill to me. It will keep me from losing too much of my rage between battles which should help with reducing downtime. Now that quick bandage between fights will not result in as much lost rage so I can keep moving. Two points with this:
- When I am soloing Execute is a nice way to finish mobs. This clears my rage pool anyway so Anger Management is going to waste.
- I don't tend to zerg instances as much. I tend to play with groups that move slower and use large amounts of crowd control. I simply don't have enough experience to know if this downtime is high enough that I will lose enough rage even with Anger Management that it is not worth it.
As long as I am in combat rage decay is barely noticable (does it even decay?) so blasting through lower level mobs minimizes effectiveness of AM as well because I'm mostly in combat and it's not doing anything. I also tend to end battles with relatively low rage even if I dont' finish with execute. I don't tend to save rage (other than in special circumstances), I tend to use it to finish mobs as quickly as possible. It looks like AM would be really useful for certain playstyles but mine might not be one of them.
3.) Get some combination of Improved Shield Wall and 1h weapon specialization. It seems like Shield Wall is the "super skill" for a tank (as opposed to Retaliation which is on the same timer [does anything else use that same timer?]) I know it has a long cooldown, but this seems like a better emergency skill than Last Stand, even if you can only use it 1/6th as often. With an extra 5 seconds I can take a large beating for about 15 seconds and hopefully provide some relief for my healer. This in combo with a potion can buy my healer a decent amount of time to recover from a messy situation. By ignoring both Last Stand and Anger Management I can put the 2 into Shield Wall and the rest into 1h WS. I'm also then in a situation where I can freely move points between 1h WS and Unbridled Wrath and maybe I can find a good balance there.
4.) If I decide Last Stand or Anger Management aren't worthwhile drop a few points into Improved Cleave. It seems like Imp. Cleave might help when fighting multiple mobs (watch for polys and the like) and might help my damage output. This is a slightly higher rage skill though and at maxed Cleave and Imp. Cleave it looks like it will only add around 30 damage (to each target). Seems like it might have a use but I'm not sure. Going any farther into the Fury tree looks like it would require a heavier Fury commitment which is not what I am looking for.
5.) Deep Wounds looks like it could be a nice way to improve my dps but I have one question and see one big drawback. The first question is whether DW is calculated based on only your base weapon damage or is it based on your modified (+AP, etc.) damage. If it is the latter it might be worth looking at. The big negative is I have to "burn" 3 points in improved Rend. This seems like a terrible waste and is why I don't think this is a great option. Still, if DW works on your modified damage (and because I'm thinking of looking for stam and then agility on equipment which should help with crit rates) it might be an option.
--------------
The multitude of options I've placed here obviously leave a few permutations of talent points in the middle. Especially regarding whether I am convinced on LS/AM/ISB. If any points somehow end up "left over" I might just drop them back into anticipation again (it certainly can't hurt) or if I'm not convinced on ISB I could put a few points into anticipation just to get a high enough Protection total to get to 1h WS and still get some utility from those points.
This turned into an excessively long post but I hope a few of you with high level warriors (Boutros, Artega, Olon, etc.) can give me some insight. I'm certainly not against rerolling my talents as it only costs me some gold, but I'd also like to have a good idea of what I want to do instead of just rerolling constantly to hit the right balance. Thanks a lot for bearing with me and for any help you can provide.
- mjdoom
Boutros,Mar 2 2005, 05:08 PM Wrote:You are only using 50 talent points, so I assume you meant to put your last point in concussion blow. If not, you should.
[right][snapback]69587[/snapback][/right]
Yes, that is where the last point was supposed to go, somehow it got lost in me recopying information a few times.
Boutros,Mar 2 2005, 05:08 PM Wrote:First, putting more than one point in improved shield block is a questionable investment. Kalgan himself admitted as much. You don't gain any extra blocks for points beyond the first, you just go from getting 2 blocks in 5.5 seconds to 2 blocks in 7 seconds.
[right][snapback]69587[/snapback][/right]
This argument took about a millisecond to sway me. This is my second char I have played extensively and I have seen a lot of the end game instances (haven't hit raids like Onyxia or MC yet though) and it seems that you are highly likely to expend those two blocks in the first 5.5 seconds anyway, especially considering that you will have multiple mobs beating on you. Two more points to work with :)
Boutros,Mar 2 2005, 05:08 PM Wrote:Another questionable investment is anticipation. When there exist items that grant more than twice the bonus of the 5 talent point investment in anticipation, I begin to believe the talent sucks. No item grants 10% parry or 10% increased chance to crit, so +10 to defense seems to really not be worth 5 talent points, simply as a matter of opportunity cost.
[right][snapback]69587[/snapback][/right]
Minor nit first, talents can only give you +5% parry or crit, still the point is taken. I'll have to admit I'm not as well versed in high level plate items as I am in cloth but my intuition says that if I get those items that give me +defense (which I know can blow anticipation out of the water) I will lose some stamina and agility or strength in exchange. I still see your point though.
Knowing this information tells me that I definitely have two more points I can redistribute and possibly up to 7. My gut reaction is that I should reallocate all 7 as the benefit of anticipation might not be as much as I first anticipated (I looked at it as a way to be on "equal" footing with those level 62 elites in the end game). There are a few options I see but I'm not really sure about them...
1.) You mention going for Last Stand and Improved Shield Bash.
I'm still having trouble seeing exactly where I am going to use last stand a lot (probably my inexperience) It seems to me like this would most often be used if you are losing hps a bit quickly (or got unlucky with a string of critical hits) and you want to buy your healer more time to heal you. Because the benefit is temporary and goes away after the 20 seconds is up you must be healed in that time or you are going down. I can understand that sometimes that 20 seconds can buy enough time for the party to recover from When Things Go Wrong ™ and that if you use it in a situation where you are not dangerously low on life it will probably amount to "no harm no foul" but I'm not sure exactly how useful it would be. One of you high level warriors must have some insight into how to use this skill effectively and I'd really love to hear it. If I can understand how to use it properly I could be very easily swayed to pick it up.
Imp. Shield Bash is also a bit questionable to me but again it might be an experience thing. Thus far I have run into few enemies who cast from multiple schools of magic. Due to this fact a simple shield bash is usually enough to shut them up for a few seconds while I lay the smackdown on them. If they are lucky they get one spell off before I bash them again. This combined with concussion blow (and potentially pummel) would lead me to believe that in controlled situations casters are certainly manageable. I see two potential issues:
- Later casters more commonly cast from multiple schools of magic so a complete silence is worthwhile.
- Casters have more instant cast spells that I haven't dealt extensively with yet and by the nature of regular shield bash these are almost unstoppable. Still I think this point is lessened if those instant cast spells are in the same school of magic as their longer cast spells unless the mob mostly or exclusively casts instants.
Once again I could be easily convinced, but I haven't seen the smoking gun yet.
2.) Artega mentioned in his post going for Anger Management. At first this looks like an excellent skill to me. It will keep me from losing too much of my rage between battles which should help with reducing downtime. Now that quick bandage between fights will not result in as much lost rage so I can keep moving. Two points with this:
- When I am soloing Execute is a nice way to finish mobs. This clears my rage pool anyway so Anger Management is going to waste.
- I don't tend to zerg instances as much. I tend to play with groups that move slower and use large amounts of crowd control. I simply don't have enough experience to know if this downtime is high enough that I will lose enough rage even with Anger Management that it is not worth it.
As long as I am in combat rage decay is barely noticable (does it even decay?) so blasting through lower level mobs minimizes effectiveness of AM as well because I'm mostly in combat and it's not doing anything. I also tend to end battles with relatively low rage even if I dont' finish with execute. I don't tend to save rage (other than in special circumstances), I tend to use it to finish mobs as quickly as possible. It looks like AM would be really useful for certain playstyles but mine might not be one of them.
3.) Get some combination of Improved Shield Wall and 1h weapon specialization. It seems like Shield Wall is the "super skill" for a tank (as opposed to Retaliation which is on the same timer [does anything else use that same timer?]) I know it has a long cooldown, but this seems like a better emergency skill than Last Stand, even if you can only use it 1/6th as often. With an extra 5 seconds I can take a large beating for about 15 seconds and hopefully provide some relief for my healer. This in combo with a potion can buy my healer a decent amount of time to recover from a messy situation. By ignoring both Last Stand and Anger Management I can put the 2 into Shield Wall and the rest into 1h WS. I'm also then in a situation where I can freely move points between 1h WS and Unbridled Wrath and maybe I can find a good balance there.
4.) If I decide Last Stand or Anger Management aren't worthwhile drop a few points into Improved Cleave. It seems like Imp. Cleave might help when fighting multiple mobs (watch for polys and the like) and might help my damage output. This is a slightly higher rage skill though and at maxed Cleave and Imp. Cleave it looks like it will only add around 30 damage (to each target). Seems like it might have a use but I'm not sure. Going any farther into the Fury tree looks like it would require a heavier Fury commitment which is not what I am looking for.
5.) Deep Wounds looks like it could be a nice way to improve my dps but I have one question and see one big drawback. The first question is whether DW is calculated based on only your base weapon damage or is it based on your modified (+AP, etc.) damage. If it is the latter it might be worth looking at. The big negative is I have to "burn" 3 points in improved Rend. This seems like a terrible waste and is why I don't think this is a great option. Still, if DW works on your modified damage (and because I'm thinking of looking for stam and then agility on equipment which should help with crit rates) it might be an option.
--------------
The multitude of options I've placed here obviously leave a few permutations of talent points in the middle. Especially regarding whether I am convinced on LS/AM/ISB. If any points somehow end up "left over" I might just drop them back into anticipation again (it certainly can't hurt) or if I'm not convinced on ISB I could put a few points into anticipation just to get a high enough Protection total to get to 1h WS and still get some utility from those points.
This turned into an excessively long post but I hope a few of you with high level warriors (Boutros, Artega, Olon, etc.) can give me some insight. I'm certainly not against rerolling my talents as it only costs me some gold, but I'd also like to have a good idea of what I want to do instead of just rerolling constantly to hit the right balance. Thanks a lot for bearing with me and for any help you can provide.
- mjdoom
Stormrage:
Flyndar (60) - Dwarf Priest - Tailoring (300), Enchanting (300)
Minimagi (60) - Gnome Mage - Herbalism (300), Engineering (301)
Galreth (60) - Human Warrior - Blacksmithing (300), Alchemy (300); Critical Mass by name, Lurker in spirit
ArynWindborn (19) - Human Paladin - Mining/Engineering (121)
Flyndar (60) - Dwarf Priest - Tailoring (300), Enchanting (300)
Minimagi (60) - Gnome Mage - Herbalism (300), Engineering (301)
Galreth (60) - Human Warrior - Blacksmithing (300), Alchemy (300); Critical Mass by name, Lurker in spirit
ArynWindborn (19) - Human Paladin - Mining/Engineering (121)