04-07-2004, 05:30 PM
Hi,
To quote one of my friends: "Vatican II happens." The "fact" that you quote hasn't been a part of mainstream Catholic dogma for decades.
Really? I suggest you actually read the Catechism of the Catholic Church which is the official declaration of the results of Vatican II. Which, BTW, happened when I was still (barely) a practicing Catholic and since I was in a Catholic high school for the first few years of that council, I was quite aware of it. It was often the discussion topic in the (required) religion class.
One of the biggest hurtles that the modern Church faces is the sheer amount of misinformation out there. You would be amazed what people tell me I belive.
No, I would not be surprised. Just as I am not surprised in your ignorance of what you *must* believe to be considered a Catholic. The church does much to cover its dogma, and one must dig to find out the truth of its proclamations. When one does the research, it becomes clear that *all* Vatican II did was to change the outward posture of the church in an attempt to be less strident in the declaration of the beliefs. It has not materially changed those beliefs.
As to the second part, you are showing yourself to be both ignorant and as closeminded as those you criticize. Do you think that any organization can last for two thousand years without "rational reason" or reasoned theories?
The religion of the Egyptians did not materially change for about 3000 years. And it was spreading in the form of worship of Isis even as Christianity was beginning. According to your logic (?), Ra is 50% more likely to be true than is Christ. Besides, since Judaism, Hinduism, and Buddhism, just to name three, predate Christianity, then your reasoning shows that they are all preferable to Christianity.
Do I think an organization based on ignorance and superstition can last millenia? Hell yes. The Druidical religions started in the neolithic possibly in the mesolithic and survived until the early Christian era. That means they survived approximately 8 to 30 times longer than Christianity has so far. If your argument is that the Druids survived because of the ignorance of the general population, then I'll reply that that is exactly my argument for the survival of Catholicism.
That is stupidity.
I agree, your paragraph immediately preceding this one is indeed an great example of stupidity. Clever of you to use a self referential statement.
Have you ever heard of Dominicans, Jesuits or a dozon other orders who do little else? How about Saint Thomas Aquinas, or Spinoza or Saint Tellihard De Chardin or any other Christian (I know Spinoza was Hebrew) philosopher? What presumtion to asume you are the first person ever born with half a brain!
Dominicans: first established by Dominic around the beginning of the thirteenth century. Original purpose was to persecute the Albigenses, which they did by using gentle persuasion, torture and execution. They got so good at it that they became the principal order in charge of the Inquisition. Not an organization whose members I would gladly approach for impartial information. That they still exist and that the Church has never apologized for their behavior is one of the outstanding indicators of how little the Church has changed. Their token apology to Galileo, 359 years later, is less than an empty gesture.
Jesuits: established by Ignatius Loyola in 1540 to be the militant part of the "Church militant". His christian goal was to convert all the "primitives" and "savages" that European exploration was turning up to Catholicism, or kill then trying. Did an extremely good job in Asia, South and Central America. Didn't do as well at home. Even for an organization as Machiavellian as the Roman Church, the Jesuits were too much. Their interference in local government became such an issue that they were disbanded in 1773. However, they were clever enough to survive (as a secret and outlawed society, under ban of excommunication but under the protection of the Russian monarch) until they were able to become public again in 1814. Oh, and on a personal note, it was a Jesuit who taught the religion classes that I mentioned earlier, that helped open my eyes and see the fraud and evil that is organized religion.
Each of your philosophers (all of whom I read forty years ago) have been answered by many other philosophers, many of whom I also read then and since. Unlike you, I did not just go to the ones that supported my opinion.
Why don't you try moderating your posts before you insult billions of people at a time and prove your own ignorance conclusively.
Actually, you have taken the stupidity crown away from whoever had it last. And, as to insulting people, if my opinions insult you, at least they don't defend an organization that has condoned torture, mass slaughter, lies and slander against anyone who disagrees with their superstitions. You are a worthy advocate of that despicable group.
--Pete
To quote one of my friends: "Vatican II happens." The "fact" that you quote hasn't been a part of mainstream Catholic dogma for decades.
Really? I suggest you actually read the Catechism of the Catholic Church which is the official declaration of the results of Vatican II. Which, BTW, happened when I was still (barely) a practicing Catholic and since I was in a Catholic high school for the first few years of that council, I was quite aware of it. It was often the discussion topic in the (required) religion class.
One of the biggest hurtles that the modern Church faces is the sheer amount of misinformation out there. You would be amazed what people tell me I belive.
No, I would not be surprised. Just as I am not surprised in your ignorance of what you *must* believe to be considered a Catholic. The church does much to cover its dogma, and one must dig to find out the truth of its proclamations. When one does the research, it becomes clear that *all* Vatican II did was to change the outward posture of the church in an attempt to be less strident in the declaration of the beliefs. It has not materially changed those beliefs.
As to the second part, you are showing yourself to be both ignorant and as closeminded as those you criticize. Do you think that any organization can last for two thousand years without "rational reason" or reasoned theories?
The religion of the Egyptians did not materially change for about 3000 years. And it was spreading in the form of worship of Isis even as Christianity was beginning. According to your logic (?), Ra is 50% more likely to be true than is Christ. Besides, since Judaism, Hinduism, and Buddhism, just to name three, predate Christianity, then your reasoning shows that they are all preferable to Christianity.
Do I think an organization based on ignorance and superstition can last millenia? Hell yes. The Druidical religions started in the neolithic possibly in the mesolithic and survived until the early Christian era. That means they survived approximately 8 to 30 times longer than Christianity has so far. If your argument is that the Druids survived because of the ignorance of the general population, then I'll reply that that is exactly my argument for the survival of Catholicism.
That is stupidity.
I agree, your paragraph immediately preceding this one is indeed an great example of stupidity. Clever of you to use a self referential statement.
Have you ever heard of Dominicans, Jesuits or a dozon other orders who do little else? How about Saint Thomas Aquinas, or Spinoza or Saint Tellihard De Chardin or any other Christian (I know Spinoza was Hebrew) philosopher? What presumtion to asume you are the first person ever born with half a brain!
Dominicans: first established by Dominic around the beginning of the thirteenth century. Original purpose was to persecute the Albigenses, which they did by using gentle persuasion, torture and execution. They got so good at it that they became the principal order in charge of the Inquisition. Not an organization whose members I would gladly approach for impartial information. That they still exist and that the Church has never apologized for their behavior is one of the outstanding indicators of how little the Church has changed. Their token apology to Galileo, 359 years later, is less than an empty gesture.
Jesuits: established by Ignatius Loyola in 1540 to be the militant part of the "Church militant". His christian goal was to convert all the "primitives" and "savages" that European exploration was turning up to Catholicism, or kill then trying. Did an extremely good job in Asia, South and Central America. Didn't do as well at home. Even for an organization as Machiavellian as the Roman Church, the Jesuits were too much. Their interference in local government became such an issue that they were disbanded in 1773. However, they were clever enough to survive (as a secret and outlawed society, under ban of excommunication but under the protection of the Russian monarch) until they were able to become public again in 1814. Oh, and on a personal note, it was a Jesuit who taught the religion classes that I mentioned earlier, that helped open my eyes and see the fraud and evil that is organized religion.
Each of your philosophers (all of whom I read forty years ago) have been answered by many other philosophers, many of whom I also read then and since. Unlike you, I did not just go to the ones that supported my opinion.
Why don't you try moderating your posts before you insult billions of people at a time and prove your own ignorance conclusively.
Actually, you have taken the stupidity crown away from whoever had it last. And, as to insulting people, if my opinions insult you, at least they don't defend an organization that has condoned torture, mass slaughter, lies and slander against anyone who disagrees with their superstitions. You are a worthy advocate of that despicable group.
--Pete
How big was the aquarium in Noah's ark?