>>Can you tell me where and when this modern "Goth" fad started?
Sure, no problem. If this threatens to derail the thread, let me know and Iâll take it to PM.
Itâs worth pointing out that Diablo II is a game replete with gothic elements (see previous link for comparisons to The Castle of Otranto, the first gothic novel, written in 1764).
Iâll try to keep this only long, not painfully long â¦
:lol:
Basically, goth is a subcultural movement that has many levels. Depending on the individual, it can be just for show, for research, or, it has enough depth to uphold a life philosophy.
Etymology, History & Confusion of Terms
Medieval: In its earlier use, Goth was synonymous with barbarian. It was later attributed specifically to Germanic peoples, and later to those of somewhat Germanic cast (read: stereotype).
High Medieval / Renaissance: The use of the term âgothicâ was next used to describe cathedral architecture, as an insult. Some considered the elaborate style, and gargoyles in particular, as an affront to God. (Classic examples of gothic architecture include Notre-Dame de Reims, Westminster Abbey, etc.) As the style grew in popularity, the term gained respect, but it still referred to that which is ornate, unsettling, or even garish. Significantly it implied a merging of Christianity (cathedrals) with the pagan (gargoyles and the idols that were incorporated into early churches, possibly to attract the pagans whose sacred ground had just been built upon), and not always a peaceful one.
Age of Reason / Enlightenment: And so, the gothic novel (beginning around the time of The Monk, 1796) was also deeply interested in questions of religious faith, conflict, and turmoil, so this term tended to stick to the literature, and some gothic fiction of the period was even set in cathedrals and monasteries (and most especially, their undercrofts and graveyards).
Victorian Gothic & the Gothic Revival: Lots of people think that Frankenstein or Dracula are the finest bits of gothic literature, but I would say Poeâs Fall of the House of Usher is superior (1839), because it eloquently unifies many of the ânew,â more cerebral themes of the gothic revival. (Thatâs another subject entirely, but those themes include duality, the nature of fate vs. free will, awareness of mortality as a heightener of sense of purpose and creativity, androgyny as a characteristic of ambiguous identity, death vs. the eternal, sensuality vs. the intellect, etc.)
The 20th Century: Cinema seized on the gothic as quickly as it could. (Nosferatu, The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, etc.) This quickly degenerated into the popular âhaunted houseâ motif, a tragically flayed equine if there ever was one.
:P
With the rise of serious literary criticism in the mid-20th century, the gothic novel (often emulated and explored, but never really quantified) attracted a great deal of interest, especially after Freud. The psychological themes inherent to the genre gave it a new level of respect, but invited more sensational parodies as well.
This is the time period (c1930-1950) to which I can trace the divergence between gothic *appearance* and gothic *substance*. But the two are roots from the same tree, so they often intertwine.
The Subculture
Gothic music originated in England at the end of the 70s. As one could say that punk grew out of disenfranchisement with the government and a backlash against âart rockâ (Floyd etc.), it could also be said that gothic (now âgothâ) was a way to swing the pendulum back the other way. It was something new, but is also focused on classic themes from the literary past.
The early examples (Joy Division, Bauhaus, the Banshees, etc.) show a clear punk influence, but with a focus on darker and more sophisticated themes than simple angst and rebellion. This is where the âpariah complexâ came from, shared by many subcultures, since subcultures usually take root as a way to define shared interests that lie a bit beyond the mainstream.
The style of music later (early to mid-80s) became more passionate, artistic and danceable. Example groups that flourished in this phase include The Cure, The Sisters of Mercy, and in other directions, even Depeche Mode (example, Black Celebration) and Skinny Puppy. The amusing thing about these groups is that most of them strove to avoid the goth label, because they were building more intricate and serious work on the crude foundations, and to admit to âgothâ was to admit to punk roots â not cool for groups with an artistic intent. The pendulum swings further â¦
Clubs featuring the music were flourishing around the world by this time (late 80s to early 90s). The audience grew, and therefore the style diverged into many sub-genres. Examples include goth-industrial, which focuses on themes of technology and isolation; goth-ethereal, which focus on dreamlike imagery and illusory beauty (Cocteau Twins, Dead Can Dance, etc.), and many others.
Among many other things, the Anne Rice phenomenon (early novels, but mostly made popular in the mid- to late-90s) led to a fierce division in the goth scene, for two reasons. One, was the focus on vampires â early gothic icons, now often ridiculed. The other was that her later novels mostly suck, and being a devotee of Rice isnât always looked upon as a gold star in the field of gothic literature.
The subculture still hasnât settled (early 21st century). Some people say that the scene is about vampirism, others about fallen angels, and others say it has no need for supernatural icons at all. Some say itâs about the music, others about the books, while still others say that other forms of media are far more representative. Etc. Think of these different schools of thought as similar to the many branches of Christianity, but not nearly so structured (and many not so serious).
Ironically, the growth of the movement has led to commercialization, so that The Oxford Book of Gothic Literature now shares the shelf with comics from Hot Topic. This creates lots of confusion among newcomers and curious onlookers, because some see it only as sensational display, while others dress more normally, focusing themselves on esoteric thought.
I know people who consider themselves goths who range from 12 to 48 years of age, so thereâs also a generation gap now to add to the festivities. Many of the younger neophytes are more interested in shocking their parents than in giving thought to the meaning of life, spirituality and mortality, so they usually either mature and deepen their interest, or move on to something more shocking and less elitist.
In short (yeah, right), if you get two goths in the same room, chances are theyâll have two entirely different mindsets, and yet will agree on certain specific points of interest that fall within the genre.
Shared Points of Reference
(outside of music and literature)
Art: For revivalists, the Pre-Raphaelites and Symbolists are popular. For post-modernists, many like H.R. Giger or the Japanese take on gothâs visual cues (Vampire Hunter D, Yo#$%&aka Amano, etc.)
Cinema: For popular fare, most like Tim Burton films and such. For the more artistic, serious films include Begotten and the short films of the Brothers Quay.
Gamers: Too many to mention. I personally find the World of Darkness cheesy, but enjoy games like Alice, Diablo II, and Lament of Innocence.
Photography: Wildly divergent, depending on whether the viewerâs focus is on the morbid or the darkly romantic (an old dichotomy that dates all the way back to 1764, due to Otranto). For the pretty and the Victorian, some like Lewis Carroll or Julia Margaret Cameron; for the twisted, some like Joel-Peter Witkin.
Thereâs lots more, but those are the basics and I donât want to put anyone to sleep.
:blink:
Thanks for the open-mindedness if you read this far.
Sure, no problem. If this threatens to derail the thread, let me know and Iâll take it to PM.
Itâs worth pointing out that Diablo II is a game replete with gothic elements (see previous link for comparisons to The Castle of Otranto, the first gothic novel, written in 1764).
Iâll try to keep this only long, not painfully long â¦
:lol:
Basically, goth is a subcultural movement that has many levels. Depending on the individual, it can be just for show, for research, or, it has enough depth to uphold a life philosophy.
Etymology, History & Confusion of Terms
Medieval: In its earlier use, Goth was synonymous with barbarian. It was later attributed specifically to Germanic peoples, and later to those of somewhat Germanic cast (read: stereotype).
High Medieval / Renaissance: The use of the term âgothicâ was next used to describe cathedral architecture, as an insult. Some considered the elaborate style, and gargoyles in particular, as an affront to God. (Classic examples of gothic architecture include Notre-Dame de Reims, Westminster Abbey, etc.) As the style grew in popularity, the term gained respect, but it still referred to that which is ornate, unsettling, or even garish. Significantly it implied a merging of Christianity (cathedrals) with the pagan (gargoyles and the idols that were incorporated into early churches, possibly to attract the pagans whose sacred ground had just been built upon), and not always a peaceful one.
Age of Reason / Enlightenment: And so, the gothic novel (beginning around the time of The Monk, 1796) was also deeply interested in questions of religious faith, conflict, and turmoil, so this term tended to stick to the literature, and some gothic fiction of the period was even set in cathedrals and monasteries (and most especially, their undercrofts and graveyards).
Victorian Gothic & the Gothic Revival: Lots of people think that Frankenstein or Dracula are the finest bits of gothic literature, but I would say Poeâs Fall of the House of Usher is superior (1839), because it eloquently unifies many of the ânew,â more cerebral themes of the gothic revival. (Thatâs another subject entirely, but those themes include duality, the nature of fate vs. free will, awareness of mortality as a heightener of sense of purpose and creativity, androgyny as a characteristic of ambiguous identity, death vs. the eternal, sensuality vs. the intellect, etc.)
The 20th Century: Cinema seized on the gothic as quickly as it could. (Nosferatu, The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, etc.) This quickly degenerated into the popular âhaunted houseâ motif, a tragically flayed equine if there ever was one.
:P
With the rise of serious literary criticism in the mid-20th century, the gothic novel (often emulated and explored, but never really quantified) attracted a great deal of interest, especially after Freud. The psychological themes inherent to the genre gave it a new level of respect, but invited more sensational parodies as well.
This is the time period (c1930-1950) to which I can trace the divergence between gothic *appearance* and gothic *substance*. But the two are roots from the same tree, so they often intertwine.
The Subculture
Gothic music originated in England at the end of the 70s. As one could say that punk grew out of disenfranchisement with the government and a backlash against âart rockâ (Floyd etc.), it could also be said that gothic (now âgothâ) was a way to swing the pendulum back the other way. It was something new, but is also focused on classic themes from the literary past.
The early examples (Joy Division, Bauhaus, the Banshees, etc.) show a clear punk influence, but with a focus on darker and more sophisticated themes than simple angst and rebellion. This is where the âpariah complexâ came from, shared by many subcultures, since subcultures usually take root as a way to define shared interests that lie a bit beyond the mainstream.
The style of music later (early to mid-80s) became more passionate, artistic and danceable. Example groups that flourished in this phase include The Cure, The Sisters of Mercy, and in other directions, even Depeche Mode (example, Black Celebration) and Skinny Puppy. The amusing thing about these groups is that most of them strove to avoid the goth label, because they were building more intricate and serious work on the crude foundations, and to admit to âgothâ was to admit to punk roots â not cool for groups with an artistic intent. The pendulum swings further â¦
Clubs featuring the music were flourishing around the world by this time (late 80s to early 90s). The audience grew, and therefore the style diverged into many sub-genres. Examples include goth-industrial, which focuses on themes of technology and isolation; goth-ethereal, which focus on dreamlike imagery and illusory beauty (Cocteau Twins, Dead Can Dance, etc.), and many others.
Among many other things, the Anne Rice phenomenon (early novels, but mostly made popular in the mid- to late-90s) led to a fierce division in the goth scene, for two reasons. One, was the focus on vampires â early gothic icons, now often ridiculed. The other was that her later novels mostly suck, and being a devotee of Rice isnât always looked upon as a gold star in the field of gothic literature.
The subculture still hasnât settled (early 21st century). Some people say that the scene is about vampirism, others about fallen angels, and others say it has no need for supernatural icons at all. Some say itâs about the music, others about the books, while still others say that other forms of media are far more representative. Etc. Think of these different schools of thought as similar to the many branches of Christianity, but not nearly so structured (and many not so serious).
Ironically, the growth of the movement has led to commercialization, so that The Oxford Book of Gothic Literature now shares the shelf with comics from Hot Topic. This creates lots of confusion among newcomers and curious onlookers, because some see it only as sensational display, while others dress more normally, focusing themselves on esoteric thought.
I know people who consider themselves goths who range from 12 to 48 years of age, so thereâs also a generation gap now to add to the festivities. Many of the younger neophytes are more interested in shocking their parents than in giving thought to the meaning of life, spirituality and mortality, so they usually either mature and deepen their interest, or move on to something more shocking and less elitist.
In short (yeah, right), if you get two goths in the same room, chances are theyâll have two entirely different mindsets, and yet will agree on certain specific points of interest that fall within the genre.
Shared Points of Reference
(outside of music and literature)
Art: For revivalists, the Pre-Raphaelites and Symbolists are popular. For post-modernists, many like H.R. Giger or the Japanese take on gothâs visual cues (Vampire Hunter D, Yo#$%&aka Amano, etc.)
Cinema: For popular fare, most like Tim Burton films and such. For the more artistic, serious films include Begotten and the short films of the Brothers Quay.
Gamers: Too many to mention. I personally find the World of Darkness cheesy, but enjoy games like Alice, Diablo II, and Lament of Innocence.
Photography: Wildly divergent, depending on whether the viewerâs focus is on the morbid or the darkly romantic (an old dichotomy that dates all the way back to 1764, due to Otranto). For the pretty and the Victorian, some like Lewis Carroll or Julia Margaret Cameron; for the twisted, some like Joel-Peter Witkin.
Thereâs lots more, but those are the basics and I donât want to put anyone to sleep.
:blink:
Thanks for the open-mindedness if you read this far.