03-14-2003, 10:34 PM
Hi Pete.....
One of the problems with a series of posts in a thread is that assumption that everything you said was absorbed. I may well have been less than clear in my writing. But I fear you have missed some of my points as well.
Firstly, I would like to re-iterate that I have a good working knowledge of what transpires in the Toronto District School Board (no mean accomplishment in itself, since it serves 300,000 students), a fair knowledge of the Education System in Ontario, and a passing knowledge of the systems in upper New York State and Michigan. I claim no knowledge of how curriculum or methods are imposed elsewhere.
Re: Immigrants in the School System
I doubt that any school board serves as many (either in real numbers or proportionately) immigrant children as mine does. Newcomers to Canada, and we do have a fairly open immigration policy, tend to settle here more than anywhere else in Canada. And they are a wildly varied lot too. My local high school has at minimum 40% of its students born elsewhere, with at least 40 home languages. And it is not out of line with norms in the city.
I am aware that immigration has always included children. But things have changed. Firstly, getting a high school education completed was not a minimum criteria for a job. Secondly, immigration was seen as a way of infilling the ditch-digger jobs anyway. Nobody really gave a damn whether those or any children found good employment. And society needed ditch-diggers too.
Re: ESL
You missed my point on the deaf/mute comment. Many of these children already do have the underpinnings of a good education. And they are quite often highly motivated children, as first-generation immigrants often are. (Stereotypes do exist for a reason sometimes.) The point of catching them early enough with ESL help to get the language barrier crossed is so they can communicate and participate in class work.
So the next question is: Is it effective? Does it make a difference or would they muddle through on their own? The experience that I have suggests that it is effective here. I cannot speak to alternative delivery systems/structures/curriculum for ESL. All I can say is that here it works.
Re: Innovation in other areas, specifically changing the school year
My motivations were, as stipulated, entirely selfish. I don't want three weeks at the cottage in December. :huh: I am aware that what is good for me and my family is not necessarily good for everyone, though.
From a societal viewpoint, given that we are no longer anything like an agrarian society, and that working parents are the norm now, changing the school year does make sense. And there is some research that suggests that several shorter breaks would be better for learning retention than one long one. There are some other minor issues that could be problematic, such as blocking off time for repair and maintenance of what is an aging set of buildings, but I am sure that could be worked out.
Regarding further innovations, I will heartily agree that creative thinking is needed on the whole sorry topic of education. But, I also don't want to see my children be the experimental subjects. Catch-22, I know. Please do not expect any parent to give an inch on the 'greater good' argument when it comes to their own offspring.
One of the problems with a series of posts in a thread is that assumption that everything you said was absorbed. I may well have been less than clear in my writing. But I fear you have missed some of my points as well.
Firstly, I would like to re-iterate that I have a good working knowledge of what transpires in the Toronto District School Board (no mean accomplishment in itself, since it serves 300,000 students), a fair knowledge of the Education System in Ontario, and a passing knowledge of the systems in upper New York State and Michigan. I claim no knowledge of how curriculum or methods are imposed elsewhere.
Re: Immigrants in the School System
I doubt that any school board serves as many (either in real numbers or proportionately) immigrant children as mine does. Newcomers to Canada, and we do have a fairly open immigration policy, tend to settle here more than anywhere else in Canada. And they are a wildly varied lot too. My local high school has at minimum 40% of its students born elsewhere, with at least 40 home languages. And it is not out of line with norms in the city.
I am aware that immigration has always included children. But things have changed. Firstly, getting a high school education completed was not a minimum criteria for a job. Secondly, immigration was seen as a way of infilling the ditch-digger jobs anyway. Nobody really gave a damn whether those or any children found good employment. And society needed ditch-diggers too.
Re: ESL
You missed my point on the deaf/mute comment. Many of these children already do have the underpinnings of a good education. And they are quite often highly motivated children, as first-generation immigrants often are. (Stereotypes do exist for a reason sometimes.) The point of catching them early enough with ESL help to get the language barrier crossed is so they can communicate and participate in class work.
So the next question is: Is it effective? Does it make a difference or would they muddle through on their own? The experience that I have suggests that it is effective here. I cannot speak to alternative delivery systems/structures/curriculum for ESL. All I can say is that here it works.
Re: Innovation in other areas, specifically changing the school year
My motivations were, as stipulated, entirely selfish. I don't want three weeks at the cottage in December. :huh: I am aware that what is good for me and my family is not necessarily good for everyone, though.
From a societal viewpoint, given that we are no longer anything like an agrarian society, and that working parents are the norm now, changing the school year does make sense. And there is some research that suggests that several shorter breaks would be better for learning retention than one long one. There are some other minor issues that could be problematic, such as blocking off time for repair and maintenance of what is an aging set of buildings, but I am sure that could be worked out.
Regarding further innovations, I will heartily agree that creative thinking is needed on the whole sorry topic of education. But, I also don't want to see my children be the experimental subjects. Catch-22, I know. Please do not expect any parent to give an inch on the 'greater good' argument when it comes to their own offspring.
And you may call it righteousness
When civility survives,
But I've had dinner with the Devil and
I know nice from right.
From Dinner with the Devil, by Big Rude Jake
When civility survives,
But I've had dinner with the Devil and
I know nice from right.
From Dinner with the Devil, by Big Rude Jake