03-11-2003, 08:27 PM
Lets see. And I should remember we talk about D1, not D2 :)
Sorry if my answer might seem confused at some point. I messed up when quoting and appearantly forgot some parts of your text and later added it back with comments. So it might appear I answer womthing twice or missed something you wrote. Sorry if that is the case.
>>Are you by perfect meaning max values on stats? Then I don't see how that would matter. A perfect stat is not in anyway different from a non perfect stat.
>I know what you are saying, but oddly this is the case.
>Note I am only talking about changing the given code
>of a single item.
Again, if the code refers to the seed, a change will often give a completely different item, regardless of what the seed was. Perhaps you could give an actual example of a situation you refer to with the perfect stat.
>>Changing the seed by a "single" value is the same as changing it to a completely other value, that is it yields a completely new item unless you manage to hit another seed that yields the exact same item, which is quite improbable :) Perfect or not, there are actually TONS of seeds yielding the exact same item.
>Again, I am only talking about modifying the current
>item's code. Certainly identical items spawning from
>the game can have virtually infinite number of
>combinations of codes. However, modifying the current
>code will only generate a new item in some instances.
For almost all types of items in the game, it will generate a different item since the mods (like the affixes and their specific values) are NOT stored seperately. They are "stored" as a seed that will regenerate the exact same item each time you start a game. A different seed (unless it happens to be one of those that would generate the same item but that is VERY small chance you find one) will indeed be a different item since that is how the game generate the item to start with.
Again, all assuming by "code" you mean the seed and not some other value of the item.
>>Are you refering to the seed of thew item? Or are you perhaps refering to the ilvl of the item?
>Both.
Ahh, but you must be VERY carefull with what you mean here. The ilvl and the seed is two COMPLETELY different aspects. The ilvl simply set some limits on the affixes to be picked, it does not involve the random ness. So obviously it will in many cases not affect the final item if changed by just 1 in value or so (although it might generate a different one). However, the seed will ALWAYS yield a new item.
> The item's ilvl is embedded in the code,
It is a seperate value from the seed. I think that by "code" you might actually mean the whole data saved for an item, but I am not sure).
> and this value can be changed within a small range so
>that the item will not regenerate in a game.
Items ALWAYS regenerate. It might just be that the item is the exact same one even if the ilvl changes slightly.
> Specifically, there is only one qlvl that an item can be
>changed to so it remains stable.
qlvl? The qlvl are fixed values for base items, affixes and such. They are not changable, saved or any such thing.
> For some reason, however, increasing or decreasing
>the ilvl of an item with perfect stats with ALWAYS cause
>the game to regenerate that given item.
I am sceptical (see below at the end). By the way, what do you mean by "perfect"?
>It is possible in this manner to create a copy of an item
>that the game thinks is a completely different item.
>They will both be identical, save for the fact that one of
>the two copies will have a different ilvl (usually ilvl-1).
Ahh, yes, in some cases that is perfectly possible, but you were constantly refering to the "code" which is impossible to interpret as the ilvl :)
Still, the items are not identical if the ilvl is different :) And in many cases it WILL generate a different item.
>For instance, I have had dupes of a Strange Short
>Sword of Haste (149%). Obviously this item would be
>difficult to find identical copies of. Both dupes were
>able to exits in the same game (even when dropped)
>because one of the copies had a modified ilvl that was
>greater than the other.
BUt then they are not dupes. Dupes are identical items. If the ilvl differ, they are not dupes, even if they happen to have the exact same mods. Just you can have tons of potions that are not dupes (although the chance is relatively higher for various reasons), you can have the exact same mods on items with the same seed but slightly different ilvl or with the same ilvl and the same seed (it is just harder to find the correct seeds).
It is trivial (and as I said, Jamella did it for D2 in a released program, I and some others I know experiemented with it by our own in D1) to search seeds automatically en masse until you find one that generate the item you want. I can run my program (if I still have it) and genereat hundrads if not thousands of Strange SHort swords of haste (with 149%) with the same ilvl but varying seeds. It do require trial and error of millions upon millions of seeds though.
> As mentioned earlier, had the sword been a perfect
>150%, this would not have been possible because
>changing the ilvl of the second sword would cause it to
>become instable (but I don't know why).
No offense, but I don't buy this, the actual value of an affix is generated the same weather it is perfect or not. The ilvl in particular has nothing to do with the prefectness or not of stats.
>In this theory is how Godly Plates of the Whale exist
>and are stable.
No, they are stable since it is a valid item as far as the game is concerned. it just never generate it itself since it requires an ilvl higher than the game itself will make at those places it would otherwise be possible. Again, ONe can generate hundrads and perhaps thousands of non dupe GPoW (with the same ilvl) all stable and of any stat. Those with non perfect stats would not be less stable.
> If you check the code for any GPoW out there, you will
>see it's ilvl > 60, which of course is not possible to
>acquire from the game.
Exactly.
>This is really the only invalid
>thing about them (not counting the price cap).
Well, it is only "invalid" in so far that the game don't generate items with that ilvl at the palces were thoat item type and affixes are possible. The game DO generate items with that ilvl though. So it is not an invalid item in that aspect. Still, what does this have to do with perfectness since you said that was the reason they were stable, or did I missunderstand you?
> I myself
>have managed to forge Holy Full Plate Mails. I have
>some items that are copies that I could show you if you
>want.
If it is to show me it is possible, no need, I know exactly (well more or less, long time ago) what is possible and not and can also generate any item I want should I so desire :) Thanks for the offer though. Still, what I am wondering about is the so called perfectness. THAT would be something that would be interesting to see shown. That an item with perfect stats are more likely to not change if you change the ilvl.
ONe thing possibly, by "perfect", you mean the numerical value of the affixes having the max value, right?
>Anyways, I certainly don't use any of stuff from above,
>but it was kind of fun to experiment with different item
>codes and what they do.
Well, I have (or had, I have forgot much although I have notes left somewere I think) basically full understanding and knowledge of how the game generate and regenerate items (that is how I managed to write my Guide :) ). I can't say I am that skilled in possible ways to cheat and hack items though since I have focused on what the game actually do, although that give some knowledge of what is possible and not and how the game would treat non real items.
> Actually, if anyone has any
>detailed information about an item's unique code,
Again, we need to lear out the terminology here. That is, what exact value or property is meant by "code", the seed or the ilvl? As for the ilvl, my Guide actually cover how it is used. As for the seed, it is just for the games random number generator. The actual exact process the game goes through in creating an item is more or less possible to figure out by my guide, although not in the details of course :) which probably is what you are looking for.
> I
>would be very interested in knowing more about it, for
>instance, if an item's code is randomly generated, then
>how does it tell the game exactly what the item is and
>what values it has?
The seed is a random valie, the ilvl is a property that is based on the monsters level (if the item comes from a monster) and is not random. The game then proceeds (if I recall correctly) to pick the base item. Possible base items depend on the ilvl. It then pick one at random (usually with equal probability for all but see my Guide). It is the seed AFTER this selection of base item that is saved along with the item type. So the item type is not regenerated.
Next it do some random rolls to check the quality of the item (magic or not, unique or not?) and then some more to see if it should have a prefix, a suffix or both.
To pick affixes, it builds a list of the possible ones based on the ilvl and the type of item (see my guide for which are possible for a given ilvl) and then again pick one of them at random. If for example there are 10 possible affixes, it creates a random number in the range of 0-9 and pick the affix corresponding to it.
Now if the ilvl changes, it will at times change the number of possible affixes, in that case the item will morph as a different one will be picked (note, if the random value in the 0-9 range is 5 or 9 does not at ALL say anything about the value should you instead pick a value in the range of 0-10).
So, some changes in the ilvl will cause a new affix, some not (changes might also affect if the item is actually magic or not if I recall correctly although a small change might not change it much).
Finally it pick a random value for the affix numerical value. If it is the same affix, it typically keep the same value as well.
So, as can be seen, the most probable cause of morphing when you change the ilvl is that the ammount of affixes change. As long as it doesn't change (or even if it changes we might get lucky and get the same one picked, after all, for arround 10 affixes, if we get 11, there is still a 1 in 11 that it picks the same one) the item will not morph.
I think the game compare the seed, the ilvl and the item type to see if an item is a dupe or not by the way, although I can recall wrong there.
Feel free to ask more about it if you want.
Sorry if my answer might seem confused at some point. I messed up when quoting and appearantly forgot some parts of your text and later added it back with comments. So it might appear I answer womthing twice or missed something you wrote. Sorry if that is the case.
>>Are you by perfect meaning max values on stats? Then I don't see how that would matter. A perfect stat is not in anyway different from a non perfect stat.
>I know what you are saying, but oddly this is the case.
>Note I am only talking about changing the given code
>of a single item.
Again, if the code refers to the seed, a change will often give a completely different item, regardless of what the seed was. Perhaps you could give an actual example of a situation you refer to with the perfect stat.
>>Changing the seed by a "single" value is the same as changing it to a completely other value, that is it yields a completely new item unless you manage to hit another seed that yields the exact same item, which is quite improbable :) Perfect or not, there are actually TONS of seeds yielding the exact same item.
>Again, I am only talking about modifying the current
>item's code. Certainly identical items spawning from
>the game can have virtually infinite number of
>combinations of codes. However, modifying the current
>code will only generate a new item in some instances.
For almost all types of items in the game, it will generate a different item since the mods (like the affixes and their specific values) are NOT stored seperately. They are "stored" as a seed that will regenerate the exact same item each time you start a game. A different seed (unless it happens to be one of those that would generate the same item but that is VERY small chance you find one) will indeed be a different item since that is how the game generate the item to start with.
Again, all assuming by "code" you mean the seed and not some other value of the item.
>>Are you refering to the seed of thew item? Or are you perhaps refering to the ilvl of the item?
>Both.
Ahh, but you must be VERY carefull with what you mean here. The ilvl and the seed is two COMPLETELY different aspects. The ilvl simply set some limits on the affixes to be picked, it does not involve the random ness. So obviously it will in many cases not affect the final item if changed by just 1 in value or so (although it might generate a different one). However, the seed will ALWAYS yield a new item.
> The item's ilvl is embedded in the code,
It is a seperate value from the seed. I think that by "code" you might actually mean the whole data saved for an item, but I am not sure).
> and this value can be changed within a small range so
>that the item will not regenerate in a game.
Items ALWAYS regenerate. It might just be that the item is the exact same one even if the ilvl changes slightly.
> Specifically, there is only one qlvl that an item can be
>changed to so it remains stable.
qlvl? The qlvl are fixed values for base items, affixes and such. They are not changable, saved or any such thing.
> For some reason, however, increasing or decreasing
>the ilvl of an item with perfect stats with ALWAYS cause
>the game to regenerate that given item.
I am sceptical (see below at the end). By the way, what do you mean by "perfect"?
>It is possible in this manner to create a copy of an item
>that the game thinks is a completely different item.
>They will both be identical, save for the fact that one of
>the two copies will have a different ilvl (usually ilvl-1).
Ahh, yes, in some cases that is perfectly possible, but you were constantly refering to the "code" which is impossible to interpret as the ilvl :)
Still, the items are not identical if the ilvl is different :) And in many cases it WILL generate a different item.
>For instance, I have had dupes of a Strange Short
>Sword of Haste (149%). Obviously this item would be
>difficult to find identical copies of. Both dupes were
>able to exits in the same game (even when dropped)
>because one of the copies had a modified ilvl that was
>greater than the other.
BUt then they are not dupes. Dupes are identical items. If the ilvl differ, they are not dupes, even if they happen to have the exact same mods. Just you can have tons of potions that are not dupes (although the chance is relatively higher for various reasons), you can have the exact same mods on items with the same seed but slightly different ilvl or with the same ilvl and the same seed (it is just harder to find the correct seeds).
It is trivial (and as I said, Jamella did it for D2 in a released program, I and some others I know experiemented with it by our own in D1) to search seeds automatically en masse until you find one that generate the item you want. I can run my program (if I still have it) and genereat hundrads if not thousands of Strange SHort swords of haste (with 149%) with the same ilvl but varying seeds. It do require trial and error of millions upon millions of seeds though.
> As mentioned earlier, had the sword been a perfect
>150%, this would not have been possible because
>changing the ilvl of the second sword would cause it to
>become instable (but I don't know why).
No offense, but I don't buy this, the actual value of an affix is generated the same weather it is perfect or not. The ilvl in particular has nothing to do with the prefectness or not of stats.
>In this theory is how Godly Plates of the Whale exist
>and are stable.
No, they are stable since it is a valid item as far as the game is concerned. it just never generate it itself since it requires an ilvl higher than the game itself will make at those places it would otherwise be possible. Again, ONe can generate hundrads and perhaps thousands of non dupe GPoW (with the same ilvl) all stable and of any stat. Those with non perfect stats would not be less stable.
> If you check the code for any GPoW out there, you will
>see it's ilvl > 60, which of course is not possible to
>acquire from the game.
Exactly.
>This is really the only invalid
>thing about them (not counting the price cap).
Well, it is only "invalid" in so far that the game don't generate items with that ilvl at the palces were thoat item type and affixes are possible. The game DO generate items with that ilvl though. So it is not an invalid item in that aspect. Still, what does this have to do with perfectness since you said that was the reason they were stable, or did I missunderstand you?
> I myself
>have managed to forge Holy Full Plate Mails. I have
>some items that are copies that I could show you if you
>want.
If it is to show me it is possible, no need, I know exactly (well more or less, long time ago) what is possible and not and can also generate any item I want should I so desire :) Thanks for the offer though. Still, what I am wondering about is the so called perfectness. THAT would be something that would be interesting to see shown. That an item with perfect stats are more likely to not change if you change the ilvl.
ONe thing possibly, by "perfect", you mean the numerical value of the affixes having the max value, right?
>Anyways, I certainly don't use any of stuff from above,
>but it was kind of fun to experiment with different item
>codes and what they do.
Well, I have (or had, I have forgot much although I have notes left somewere I think) basically full understanding and knowledge of how the game generate and regenerate items (that is how I managed to write my Guide :) ). I can't say I am that skilled in possible ways to cheat and hack items though since I have focused on what the game actually do, although that give some knowledge of what is possible and not and how the game would treat non real items.
> Actually, if anyone has any
>detailed information about an item's unique code,
Again, we need to lear out the terminology here. That is, what exact value or property is meant by "code", the seed or the ilvl? As for the ilvl, my Guide actually cover how it is used. As for the seed, it is just for the games random number generator. The actual exact process the game goes through in creating an item is more or less possible to figure out by my guide, although not in the details of course :) which probably is what you are looking for.
> I
>would be very interested in knowing more about it, for
>instance, if an item's code is randomly generated, then
>how does it tell the game exactly what the item is and
>what values it has?
The seed is a random valie, the ilvl is a property that is based on the monsters level (if the item comes from a monster) and is not random. The game then proceeds (if I recall correctly) to pick the base item. Possible base items depend on the ilvl. It then pick one at random (usually with equal probability for all but see my Guide). It is the seed AFTER this selection of base item that is saved along with the item type. So the item type is not regenerated.
Next it do some random rolls to check the quality of the item (magic or not, unique or not?) and then some more to see if it should have a prefix, a suffix or both.
To pick affixes, it builds a list of the possible ones based on the ilvl and the type of item (see my guide for which are possible for a given ilvl) and then again pick one of them at random. If for example there are 10 possible affixes, it creates a random number in the range of 0-9 and pick the affix corresponding to it.
Now if the ilvl changes, it will at times change the number of possible affixes, in that case the item will morph as a different one will be picked (note, if the random value in the 0-9 range is 5 or 9 does not at ALL say anything about the value should you instead pick a value in the range of 0-10).
So, some changes in the ilvl will cause a new affix, some not (changes might also affect if the item is actually magic or not if I recall correctly although a small change might not change it much).
Finally it pick a random value for the affix numerical value. If it is the same affix, it typically keep the same value as well.
So, as can be seen, the most probable cause of morphing when you change the ilvl is that the ammount of affixes change. As long as it doesn't change (or even if it changes we might get lucky and get the same one picked, after all, for arround 10 affixes, if we get 11, there is still a 1 in 11 that it picks the same one) the item will not morph.
I think the game compare the seed, the ilvl and the item type to see if an item is a dupe or not by the way, although I can recall wrong there.
Feel free to ask more about it if you want.
There are three types of people in the world. Those who can count and those who can't.