10-10-2003, 02:45 PM
Ah..... one of my beloved topics.... the Dune Books....
I've tried to leave out the spoilers, so I'm working on a few assumptions here, being that you, the reader, have read cmpletely through at least Dune and Messiah. If you haven't read at least that far, and don't want to risk spoiling the future of book for you.
First, when I say "original books," I mean Dune, Messiah, Children, God Emperor, Heretics and Chapterhouse.
Second, when I say "house books," I mean Atreades, Harkonnen and Corrino.
Third, when I say "new books," I mean Butlerian Jihad, and the new one (out last month) Machine Crusade.
I got my wife into the Dune series, and she's much more the horror, suspence books, but not really any Sci-Fi books. Once I had her hooked, she's been eagerly awaiting each book's release.
I loved the original books. All of them, though I've had conversations with people about God Emperor, since I've found that not many people think that it is on par with the books before it. I think that this is primarily due to the fact that there is 3500 years of history that the book is trying to cover. Me, being someone that still loves Greek Mythology and learning about ancient cultures and civilizations, I didn't have a problem with the book. Just in case you're wondering about the time line between the books, here it is:
Dune - the year 10,191
Messiah - probably about 10,210
Children - probably about 10,230
God Emperor - 13,730 (give or take 20 years)
Heretics - 15,230 (again, give or take 20 years)
Chapterhouse - about 5-10 years after Heretics ends.
I saw that people thought that the movies were great. The problem that I have with all 3 movies (the original movie and the two from the Sci-Fi Channel - hereafter referred to as SFC) is that you need to read the books, otherwise the movies don't make very much sense. If you take the original movie and the first of the SFC series, it does explain a lot between the two, but there are still holes left in the story. The original cut of the original movie (with Kyle McLachlan - who also played Trey on Sex and the City), was 6 hours long, and it explained EVERYTHING. People complained that the movie was too long. So they cut it down to 4 hours, which still did a good job of explaining the story, but people still complained. So they hacked it down to 2 hours, and then people left the theatre saying "what?" But then again, maybe that is my biased-ness coming out (I think that the book is always better then the movie).
Okay, back to the books....
I did enjoy the house books, but I thought that there was a rather large gap left between the end of House Corrino and the beginning of Dune. Personally, I think tha there should have been a House of Ix book. But from those three books, you come to understand where the history of the hatred for the Tulaxu comes from, but it never explains how Ix once again became a superpower in the Landsriad. But you do get to see just how truely sneaky Emperor Shadam IV really is, and the ties that really bond the sisters of the Bene Geserit (sp?). In this series, you also get to know the histories of Gurney Hallek and Duncan Idaho.
I am only about halfway though Butlerian Jihad, thanks to my youngest daughter getter hands on my copy of the book and hiding it from me, and then my lack of spare time to sit down and read. Some of the things that I see in there are rather shocking, considering how the families start out, and who their alliances are with, and who they are decended from. You also learn why the Barron Vladimir Harkonnen hates the Sisterhood so much, and particularly Reverend Mother Moheim. And why Jessica's relationship with her teacher, Reverend Mother Mheim is as stressed as it is.
Undertones and Themes.....
I did notice that it seemed like Children was sort of critical of religion, and the abuses of power that can come from it. Take the Catholic Church (by the way, I'm Catholic myself) and history. The abuse of power that the Church is guilty of throughout history is rather amazing. But even later, you can pick up further religious undertones, but also political undertones too. I'm not entirely sure when the series was written, but there seems to be a bit of anamosity that Herbert had towards the Solviets, since Vladamir is more of a Russian name in recent history than anywhere else - back in the days when Communism was going strong. Possibly the use of the house color of Blue is for Herbert's deniability that he's making reference to the Solviet Union at that point in time. Personally, I think that it would have been a dead giveaway if he used red for the house color. However, I am interested in finding out what others that have read the books have thought about the various undertones of the books, particularly the ones about religion, and my theory that House Harkonnen are supposed to be decended from USSR. Another thing that I find interesting is that there is nothing that is mentioned about any Chinese or Japanese descent. But what what was the military strength of China at the time? I know that due to the surrender of Japan in World War II that the Japanese weren't allowed to have any greater military strength than to defend itself, but nothing on a scale that it had when the war was going on. What are your thoughts? I'm greatly interested in hearing them. Am I full of it? Am I reading too much into the books? Should I seek professional help? Sadly to say, with Frank Herbert being gone, we may never know. But I think that this would lead to many interesting conversations in the future, if you folks are game for it.
********************************* WARNING *********************************
If you have not read through the original books entirely, do not read further, since I do have a spoiler here.
********************************* WARNING *********************************
I do think that it's interesting that the series only has one main character that pseudo-survives through the millenia that the series covers, and that it's not House Harkonen or Corino. And not even originally not even House Atreades. Who other than Duncan Idaho, the divout soldier who is killed a third of the way through the first book. Granted, he's changed quite a bit through the series, but he's still there, the only problem is that he's tied to everone in the known universe in the end.
But I've gone on long enough..... for now....
I've tried to leave out the spoilers, so I'm working on a few assumptions here, being that you, the reader, have read cmpletely through at least Dune and Messiah. If you haven't read at least that far, and don't want to risk spoiling the future of book for you.
First, when I say "original books," I mean Dune, Messiah, Children, God Emperor, Heretics and Chapterhouse.
Second, when I say "house books," I mean Atreades, Harkonnen and Corrino.
Third, when I say "new books," I mean Butlerian Jihad, and the new one (out last month) Machine Crusade.
I got my wife into the Dune series, and she's much more the horror, suspence books, but not really any Sci-Fi books. Once I had her hooked, she's been eagerly awaiting each book's release.
I loved the original books. All of them, though I've had conversations with people about God Emperor, since I've found that not many people think that it is on par with the books before it. I think that this is primarily due to the fact that there is 3500 years of history that the book is trying to cover. Me, being someone that still loves Greek Mythology and learning about ancient cultures and civilizations, I didn't have a problem with the book. Just in case you're wondering about the time line between the books, here it is:
Dune - the year 10,191
Messiah - probably about 10,210
Children - probably about 10,230
God Emperor - 13,730 (give or take 20 years)
Heretics - 15,230 (again, give or take 20 years)
Chapterhouse - about 5-10 years after Heretics ends.
I saw that people thought that the movies were great. The problem that I have with all 3 movies (the original movie and the two from the Sci-Fi Channel - hereafter referred to as SFC) is that you need to read the books, otherwise the movies don't make very much sense. If you take the original movie and the first of the SFC series, it does explain a lot between the two, but there are still holes left in the story. The original cut of the original movie (with Kyle McLachlan - who also played Trey on Sex and the City), was 6 hours long, and it explained EVERYTHING. People complained that the movie was too long. So they cut it down to 4 hours, which still did a good job of explaining the story, but people still complained. So they hacked it down to 2 hours, and then people left the theatre saying "what?" But then again, maybe that is my biased-ness coming out (I think that the book is always better then the movie).
Okay, back to the books....
I did enjoy the house books, but I thought that there was a rather large gap left between the end of House Corrino and the beginning of Dune. Personally, I think tha there should have been a House of Ix book. But from those three books, you come to understand where the history of the hatred for the Tulaxu comes from, but it never explains how Ix once again became a superpower in the Landsriad. But you do get to see just how truely sneaky Emperor Shadam IV really is, and the ties that really bond the sisters of the Bene Geserit (sp?). In this series, you also get to know the histories of Gurney Hallek and Duncan Idaho.
I am only about halfway though Butlerian Jihad, thanks to my youngest daughter getter hands on my copy of the book and hiding it from me, and then my lack of spare time to sit down and read. Some of the things that I see in there are rather shocking, considering how the families start out, and who their alliances are with, and who they are decended from. You also learn why the Barron Vladimir Harkonnen hates the Sisterhood so much, and particularly Reverend Mother Moheim. And why Jessica's relationship with her teacher, Reverend Mother Mheim is as stressed as it is.
Undertones and Themes.....
I did notice that it seemed like Children was sort of critical of religion, and the abuses of power that can come from it. Take the Catholic Church (by the way, I'm Catholic myself) and history. The abuse of power that the Church is guilty of throughout history is rather amazing. But even later, you can pick up further religious undertones, but also political undertones too. I'm not entirely sure when the series was written, but there seems to be a bit of anamosity that Herbert had towards the Solviets, since Vladamir is more of a Russian name in recent history than anywhere else - back in the days when Communism was going strong. Possibly the use of the house color of Blue is for Herbert's deniability that he's making reference to the Solviet Union at that point in time. Personally, I think that it would have been a dead giveaway if he used red for the house color. However, I am interested in finding out what others that have read the books have thought about the various undertones of the books, particularly the ones about religion, and my theory that House Harkonnen are supposed to be decended from USSR. Another thing that I find interesting is that there is nothing that is mentioned about any Chinese or Japanese descent. But what what was the military strength of China at the time? I know that due to the surrender of Japan in World War II that the Japanese weren't allowed to have any greater military strength than to defend itself, but nothing on a scale that it had when the war was going on. What are your thoughts? I'm greatly interested in hearing them. Am I full of it? Am I reading too much into the books? Should I seek professional help? Sadly to say, with Frank Herbert being gone, we may never know. But I think that this would lead to many interesting conversations in the future, if you folks are game for it.
********************************* WARNING *********************************
If you have not read through the original books entirely, do not read further, since I do have a spoiler here.
********************************* WARNING *********************************
I do think that it's interesting that the series only has one main character that pseudo-survives through the millenia that the series covers, and that it's not House Harkonen or Corino. And not even originally not even House Atreades. Who other than Duncan Idaho, the divout soldier who is killed a third of the way through the first book. Granted, he's changed quite a bit through the series, but he's still there, the only problem is that he's tied to everone in the known universe in the end.
But I've gone on long enough..... for now....