07-28-2003, 10:12 PM
"Try around the time of the Crusades, 1200 ish, Ogadai shows up, son or nephew of Kublai Khan, and kicks ass in Damascus and Baghdad. It took the Fatamids in Cairo, Suliman the Great, some Mamaluks, not to mention political strife at home, to slow his arse down. He cut a wide swath from Samarkand to Damascus."
What? Yeah, this happened. I think I missed how this has to do with the Mongolians being Chinese (or any of the other peoples they conquered). I didn't realize I needed a Mongolian history lesson. Of course, speaking of Islam, Tamerlaine's empire assimilated Islam (or the other way around, depending on how you look at it). Always a synthesis.
"Don't you mean "the Islamic ideas of justice and civilization?" The most relevant claim to empire, by the Arabs, is the spread of the Arabic language, which being the only authorized language of the Koran, became a standard. (See also Ancient Greek and Latin and Slavonic as 'official' Christian languages. Martin Luther did not show up until the 1400's.) Those ideas on "civilization" are a few millenia older than Islam. Credit to The Prophet for his synthesis, and for expanding on monotheism learned from the Hebrews, Christians, and a few others. He did not make it up. Credit also to him, and his followers, for some new slants on the social contract. *tips caps* I am all for public beheadings."
Yes, and it all dates back to the Code of Hammurabi, and back before that to some unknown code of laws at the dawn of time. Mohammed was responsible for a major advancement, a powerful and new iteration of the notion of law and order, purifying the ideas of monotheism (only halfheartedly practiced by the Christians, and practiced somewhat supersitiously by the Jews, and from the vantage of a "chosen people", an idea largely missing from Islam) and justice into a very compact package, for its time. Obviously he did not reinvent the wheel, or invent the entire concept of justice whole cloth.
"Yes, Mohamed was an Arab, but the Arabs lost control of Islam to the Turks, after the Persians had already, from within, changed it, particularly as it related to Empire. The Turks lost out when Attaturk threw the Caliphate out as a premise for government. It took The West and WW I to give it back to the Arabs, and I'd suggest that the Ayatollah's contest the matter of who is in charge. You have heard of them, have you not? You know, those Persians? "
You say this as though it was an afternoon. This process took a whole millenium! Sure, Persian influence grew over time; Persia is a natural administrative centre, with a rich, developed society and a connection to the east. Sure, the Ottomans took over, after a very, very long run; empires come and go. The Arabs were the driving force behind the entire business for at least a couple centuries, possibly longer. The Romans didn't have a much longer run than that. Neither have you Americans, so far.
Yes, every victory is qualified. Yes, all the Arabs (or anyone) achieved was also attributable to a synthesis or assimilation with another culture, either older (in decline, but still with a rich culture) or newer (with a fiery spirit, the kind that drives an empire).
But the Arab civilization was not a "romantic fiction", at least insofar as any individual nation or group can claim exclusive credit for anything, which is not very far at all.
Jester
What? Yeah, this happened. I think I missed how this has to do with the Mongolians being Chinese (or any of the other peoples they conquered). I didn't realize I needed a Mongolian history lesson. Of course, speaking of Islam, Tamerlaine's empire assimilated Islam (or the other way around, depending on how you look at it). Always a synthesis.
"Don't you mean "the Islamic ideas of justice and civilization?" The most relevant claim to empire, by the Arabs, is the spread of the Arabic language, which being the only authorized language of the Koran, became a standard. (See also Ancient Greek and Latin and Slavonic as 'official' Christian languages. Martin Luther did not show up until the 1400's.) Those ideas on "civilization" are a few millenia older than Islam. Credit to The Prophet for his synthesis, and for expanding on monotheism learned from the Hebrews, Christians, and a few others. He did not make it up. Credit also to him, and his followers, for some new slants on the social contract. *tips caps* I am all for public beheadings."
Yes, and it all dates back to the Code of Hammurabi, and back before that to some unknown code of laws at the dawn of time. Mohammed was responsible for a major advancement, a powerful and new iteration of the notion of law and order, purifying the ideas of monotheism (only halfheartedly practiced by the Christians, and practiced somewhat supersitiously by the Jews, and from the vantage of a "chosen people", an idea largely missing from Islam) and justice into a very compact package, for its time. Obviously he did not reinvent the wheel, or invent the entire concept of justice whole cloth.
"Yes, Mohamed was an Arab, but the Arabs lost control of Islam to the Turks, after the Persians had already, from within, changed it, particularly as it related to Empire. The Turks lost out when Attaturk threw the Caliphate out as a premise for government. It took The West and WW I to give it back to the Arabs, and I'd suggest that the Ayatollah's contest the matter of who is in charge. You have heard of them, have you not? You know, those Persians? "
You say this as though it was an afternoon. This process took a whole millenium! Sure, Persian influence grew over time; Persia is a natural administrative centre, with a rich, developed society and a connection to the east. Sure, the Ottomans took over, after a very, very long run; empires come and go. The Arabs were the driving force behind the entire business for at least a couple centuries, possibly longer. The Romans didn't have a much longer run than that. Neither have you Americans, so far.
Yes, every victory is qualified. Yes, all the Arabs (or anyone) achieved was also attributable to a synthesis or assimilation with another culture, either older (in decline, but still with a rich culture) or newer (with a fiery spirit, the kind that drives an empire).
But the Arab civilization was not a "romantic fiction", at least insofar as any individual nation or group can claim exclusive credit for anything, which is not very far at all.
Jester