07-25-2003, 08:10 PM
"Why was the USSR one of the first governments to recognize the State of Israel? Think about it. What was post WW II all about? Dismantling old Empires and reviatlizing nationalist movements in their place, of which Zionism was but one example. This was consistent with the Enlightenment and Revolutionary ideas that spawned Socialism, Republicanism (old meaning) and Communism."
Or maybe they smelled a strong red streak in some of the original makeup of the Zionist movement, and the somewhat socialist character of the new state, and thought "Hey! Natural ally!"? Probably a bit of both.
"If the common cultural assumptions are not changed, nothing else will change."
This is very true. But it can't be one sided. This is not just a matter of pulling Arabs up by their bootstraps. Palestinians need to learn the basics of living in a modern, peaceful, multicultural society. Israelis have to actually let them, rather than treating them like Native Americans, inconveniences that just happen to occupy your sovereign land. That means learning a pretty serious measure of tolerance, by both sides. Moral rants and finger pointing make everything very bleak. Perhaps some version of South Africa's justice system, after the fall of apartheid, where all greivances can be brought out, dealt with, and forgiven? I dunno.
"This Continent, Town, Country, Strip of Land, aint big enough for both of us. We cannot coexist peacefully."
The Palestinians certainly have to accept enormous responsibility for their occasional adoption of the ridiculous Arab world slogan, "Death to Israel". Israel isn't going to die, and wishing for it is only going to make things worse. However, the Israelis tend to be content with "Palestinian reservation" or "Tiny, impoverished refugee camps" as fulfulling their obligations to coexist peacefully. I don't find it in the least surprising that the Palestinians view this treatment as a complete non-solution, and, while I reject violence, I too would certainly be very angry about such treatment.
"The Arab world is still very much in a state of transition, or potential transition, regarding the momentum away from Tribes/Clans and towards the modern, Enlightenment based models that are the cornerstone assumption of the United Nations Charter."
The Arabs had a magnificent civilization while Europe was still "Tribes 'n Clans". That they have fallen so far in the centuries of Ottoman rule (and, to be fair, the later centuries of their own) is tragic, but it's not like we just found these people in Darkest Peru. We know them to be, culturally, capable of civilization on the level we have. Arabs, and Islam in general, could be a tremendously positive force for civilization. But, like all religions that have grown too old, or gone without renewal (like, say, the Catholic church, at a similar date in its own life), it has stagnated, and their whole society has gone with it. Since Arab nationalist movements, thanks to their happening in the middle of the Cold War, were entirely channeled to non-productive activities (like trying to wipe out Israel... thanks, Nasser. Thanks a bloody lot...), we gotta wait for the next regenerative "wave". I think Al Jazeera, painful as it is to watch, is the spearhead of that wave. If all goes well, we should be looking at a collapse of most decrepit Arab regimes, and, when that's done, maybe Israel will decide that it's the time for some Grand Gestures, and start things back off on the right foot.
We can only hope.
Jester
Or maybe they smelled a strong red streak in some of the original makeup of the Zionist movement, and the somewhat socialist character of the new state, and thought "Hey! Natural ally!"? Probably a bit of both.
"If the common cultural assumptions are not changed, nothing else will change."
This is very true. But it can't be one sided. This is not just a matter of pulling Arabs up by their bootstraps. Palestinians need to learn the basics of living in a modern, peaceful, multicultural society. Israelis have to actually let them, rather than treating them like Native Americans, inconveniences that just happen to occupy your sovereign land. That means learning a pretty serious measure of tolerance, by both sides. Moral rants and finger pointing make everything very bleak. Perhaps some version of South Africa's justice system, after the fall of apartheid, where all greivances can be brought out, dealt with, and forgiven? I dunno.
"This Continent, Town, Country, Strip of Land, aint big enough for both of us. We cannot coexist peacefully."
The Palestinians certainly have to accept enormous responsibility for their occasional adoption of the ridiculous Arab world slogan, "Death to Israel". Israel isn't going to die, and wishing for it is only going to make things worse. However, the Israelis tend to be content with "Palestinian reservation" or "Tiny, impoverished refugee camps" as fulfulling their obligations to coexist peacefully. I don't find it in the least surprising that the Palestinians view this treatment as a complete non-solution, and, while I reject violence, I too would certainly be very angry about such treatment.
"The Arab world is still very much in a state of transition, or potential transition, regarding the momentum away from Tribes/Clans and towards the modern, Enlightenment based models that are the cornerstone assumption of the United Nations Charter."
The Arabs had a magnificent civilization while Europe was still "Tribes 'n Clans". That they have fallen so far in the centuries of Ottoman rule (and, to be fair, the later centuries of their own) is tragic, but it's not like we just found these people in Darkest Peru. We know them to be, culturally, capable of civilization on the level we have. Arabs, and Islam in general, could be a tremendously positive force for civilization. But, like all religions that have grown too old, or gone without renewal (like, say, the Catholic church, at a similar date in its own life), it has stagnated, and their whole society has gone with it. Since Arab nationalist movements, thanks to their happening in the middle of the Cold War, were entirely channeled to non-productive activities (like trying to wipe out Israel... thanks, Nasser. Thanks a bloody lot...), we gotta wait for the next regenerative "wave". I think Al Jazeera, painful as it is to watch, is the spearhead of that wave. If all goes well, we should be looking at a collapse of most decrepit Arab regimes, and, when that's done, maybe Israel will decide that it's the time for some Grand Gestures, and start things back off on the right foot.
We can only hope.
Jester