Bourgeois pigs kill suicidal 16 year old boy.

[shoju]

Right, but this just proves my point: you cannot reform racism or other identity politics out of a class system - they merely change in context, not in actual existence. There will never be an equal playing field for whites and minorities in a capitalist system, EVER. The economic and social laws and structural forces of the system prevent this. Gains are, at best, cosmetic, and those themselves are never guaranteed to stay intact. The ultimate interests of private capital are what determine policy, action, behavior, and such. The State acts in the ultimate interests of the ruling class based on current circumstances, whether it is discriminatory policy or some form of concession to those who are subjugated. Furthermore, you know very well, this extends well beyond the political arena into the daily lives of everyday people.

I think what you mean is that you will never reform racism or other identity politics out of humanity. It isn't strictly a capitalist problem. Tribes in the heart of Africa, and in the Amazon experience the same idiotic problems, purely because they are two warring tribes. That's not Capitalism.

This is where we differ. You look at the data and draw conclusions that gains are only cosmetic, and that Real Change, isn't happening. I look at the data and the conclusion that every day, change is happening. It's slow, and it takes time, but it is happening. We can either dismiss the change, or we can move forward, embracing the small steps, and continuing to move forward.

So, you think the Democrats are any less subservient to corporate interests than Republicans are?
Well, let me tell you, they aren't. Obama has done a wonderful job for keeping it business as usual. Minorities will almost always vote for the party that seems to have their best interests in mind. One party losing badly means nothing, when both of them are almost the same thing. For the 1%, it doesn't matter - they win either way. And so does capitalism. The GOP losing is because they pander to their most extreme faction, the Tea Party, not to mention the chauvinistic war on women. Racial and gender inequality are good for capitalism, but being explicitly and open about it, is not so good for one personally - especially in the political arena. Right now, the Latino community is growing rapidly and plays a very important role in the labor force - Romney wanted them to self deport, and this isn't in the interests of the current conditions of American capitalism, therefore this (among other things) cost him the election.

The Republicans inability to even acknowledge that African American's, Latinos, young voters, and Women are a larger part of the voting constituency doomed them. Look at the exit poll numbers, and compare it with what you are hearing from Conservatives.

They didn't think that Voter turnout in the African American Population would be as high as it was in 2008. It was higher.
They didn't put enough effort into the Latino Population. And lost by 45+ points in that demographic.
They didn't think their war on women would effect them. They lost by 15+ points in that demographic.

I'm not saying that the dems are better. I'm saying that the dems are embracing sociological change (even if only a little), while the GOP did not.

They do this type of stuff all the time man - whether it is profiling, planting or withholding evidence, using excessive force when making an arrest, lying in testimony to protect their fellow officers even when they are wrong, and just acting like jerks whenever the opportunity presents itself. I'm not making generalizations, this stuff happens a lot more than you think. Cops in general have a shaky reputation at best even among non-radicals, and it is well deserved.

And here we are. Back to this. Mr. FireIceTalon, the CHAMPIONof evidence and measurables, and you are reduced to statements and no information, to try and prove your point. Why? Because you want to believe that the awful shit that you hear and read about in the news runs rampant, because IT MUST BE TRUE! You are making generalizations. You can say "I'm not making generalizations" all you want. That doesn't make it not true. I can say that the Sky is Green right now. That doesn't change that it is really blue, and there is not a cloud in the sky.

I'm not interested in individual personalties though, I'm interested in objective systematic conditions and processes. Besides, cops have a tendency to be very reactionary. If a revolution took place tomorrow, whose side do you think the cops would take, the side of the revolutionaries, or the State's? Think we all know the answer to that question. We saw what happened when just a few "left-leaning" Occupy protestors, who were far from being radical revolutionaries, expressed their opinions. They were met with batons, pepper spray, and police brutality.

You keep using words and phrases like "Tendency" and "They" and "All" and you are lumping them together, in an argument that you simply cannot prove using your "Science" of "Communist" beliefs. And then you go on to make hyperbolic statements about the clashes between Occupy Protesters and Police. You have officially left the land of "observable facts" and jumped straight to the land of "I can't prove this, but I'm going to talk like I can, and hope no one notices."

Again, considering about 2/3rds of the prison population are minorities, I'd say that is pretty empirical and observable.

You are going to point to the population of our prisons, and use that as your defense of you idea that Police are Pig Scum rife with corruption? How is that a cause and effect? Where is the proof? Where is the proof that the prisons are loaded up with minorities based on corruption? It's possibly, an interesting point to consider, but it is no where near proof.

They aren't a minority. Most cops are indeed extremely reactionary, no matter how nice the ones you know may be. Yes, even the "nice" ones are, at the end of the day, reactionary in some way, because they protect bourgeois laws that legitimize the ruling class hegemony and ideology. Comparing my analysis to Ashock's lumping of Muslims as terrorists can't even begin to compare - Islam is a religion, some of them are radical and some aren't. ALL cops, however, have an objective duty to protect and uphold the laws that legitimize the interest of capital.

You are back to statements you can't prove. You don't have the numbers to prove, but you are talking like you can prove them. I think I've realized what the solution is here. I'll get to that in a minute. You are now going to try and paint a picture that 353,444 (1 more than half) are awful terrible bourgeois protecting facist pig scum. You are delusional.

No, there won't be, because in a classless society everyone's economic interests are essentially the same - since the means of production are no longer privately owned by some parasitic class. Personal interests may and probably will differ because we all have different personal circumstances, but that is a completely different thing entirely from objective class interests. Besides, in a classless society, the laws, if any, are made in such a context that they are democratically put into place by ALL of that society (likely through Workers Councils), and apply equally and fairly to that society, since there isn't a ruling class or State anymore. This is far from the case in the current order. In socialism, yes there are still elements of the old order within society (there are still classes, some markets perhaps, bourgeois law, and the exchange of currency and goods, the State still exists even though we control it now, etc), and it will be during this stage when the proletarian will have to be careful - those who wish to re-establish the previous order of things will be present still.

No cops. No people breaking laws. No people who decide that because their wife/husband screwed the neighbor that they are going to kill the neighbor. No person who is going to make a mistake while driving, only to have another fly into a road rage and run them off the road. Or, do you believe that after they do these acts, that they will just walk into the "Workers Councils" and say "I DID IT! I'M SORRY! I'M THE ONE WHO KILLED THEM!"

Or... Are you just planning to hand out Soma in your grand society? Crime isn't always focused on Capitalism FIT. Even if Capitalism is "Evil" like you think, it is far from the only thing that leads to crime. Economics isn't the only reason people commit crime. Rape isn't a crime of economics. It's a crime of power and control. That power and control isn't solely fueled by economics. Murder isn't solely based on economics.

Racial profiling is definitely an extension of and correlated to white privilege. Who is more likely to get stopped while they are walking down the street, a white man in a business suit, or a black man in jeans, a t-shirt, and sneakers?

Who is more likely to get stopped walking down the street? A Black Man in a business suit? Or a White kid with his pants buckled below his ass, a hoodie, and his ball cap turned to side?

The fact it is even profitable at all renders this pointless.
Besides racism is good for business, it is open racism that isn't good for business. As I said before, the State will act in preserving the ultimate interests of the ruling class, even if that means altering a lesser interest. In the 1950's, Jim Crowe laws were profitable for the ruling class, today they are not - now it is symbolic racism and mass incarceration that is necessary to retain divisions of labor and white privilege among the working class. Blacks WITHOUT a criminal record still have to work harder than whites WITH a criminal record in the job market - statistics show that whites with a criminal record have about an 17% chance of getting a call back for employment (35% w/o a record). Blacks without a record have about a 15% chance of getting a call back. What that translates to is this: Being black in America is the same as being a criminal. Employers view whites with a criminal record as being no more dangerous than blacks without one. And compared with whites who have no criminal record, blacks have to apply to more than twice as many jobs to have the same equality of opportunity. This is institutionalized and symbolic racism man. And if you are black with a criminal record, forget it, your chances of getting a call back for employment are less than 6%. Even before the application process has begun, studies show that blacks are more likely to be asked up front if they have a record, than whites are. Again, institutionalized racism. Plus, blacks with similar qualifications and education are still paid less than whites are, and less likely to be promoted and more likely to be fired or laid off. Just because the blatantly racist and extreme GOP of today lost an election doesn't mean racism isn't profitable - it still very much is.

And 50 years ago, those call back numbers were even more skewed. You keep looking at the data, and you refuse to see the progress, because progress would hurt your stance.

Ive only heard the Obama excuse a million times now, and its played out. So because we elected a black president finally after 230+ years, suddenly all racism has just disappeared and that we are finally becoming a non-racist society. It isn't just the bourgeois who are racist, white workers are just as racist as well, because they have been influenced by ruling class ideology that helps spread false consciousness. My bourgeois? Ha! And besides, the election of Obama has actually strengthened racism in some ways, even though Obama himself represents and is part of the bourgeois:

Did I say all racism has disappeared? I asked, if the Bourgeois is so racist, and they are so out to "save the white man" and "keep him in power" how did they let a black man get elected? So that it could strengthen racism? Oh please. That's such a lame copout excuse. The people who "are now racist because Obama is president" were racist before, they just didn't open their mouth about it. Racist is Racist whether you speak your mind, or hold it inside.

Interestingly, a lot of conservative whites see his election as a threat to their privileged status somehow; the ideology and wishes of the Tea Party not withstanding, it hardly is.

Not every cop is racist, but capitalism is a very racist system, and their duty is to uphold the laws that legitimize it, even if they aren't personally racist. But one doesn't have to be racist to be a reactionary either. Their job is to serve and protect - in particular serve and protect private property.

Anyway, if my comments about cops being scum offended you that much, I apologize. I still stand by my analysis on their role in protecting private property and ruling class laws, however. Don't know what else to say bro. It is what it is.

And I think at this point, I will get back to what the solution here is. I'm just going to put you on ignore. You have made wild claims, and you can't back them up. You have said that my anectdotes don't change the facts, but you have taken a sampling and made a caricature, because it fits your beliefs. You haven't proved that all cops are PIG SCUM. You've proved that you can make a great claim, but that you can't back it up with real evidence.

"They do this type of stuff all the time man"

What a compelling argument, with riveting statistics.

Thanks for quoting 1984 from Orwell. I'll leave you with a quote.
"One believes things because one has been conditioned to believe them." - Aldous Huxley

I have been conditioned to think that we have the ability to move forward, and improve upon what we have, that progress and change, have, and are continuing to happen.

You have been conditioned to think that Capitalism is the root of all evil, Police are horrible terrible PIG SCUM that deserve your ire, and that there has been no real progress, no real change.

So, if you end up finding your classless state where no one breaks laws, and power, control, lust, hatred, and betrayal don't lead to crimes, make sure to take your Soma. I'll be waiting near the Centrifugal Bumble-Puppy games.