07-16-2003, 12:52 PM
I have not tested myself, so I trully cannot say, but it has been said numerous times, and by numerous people, that skills are no longer viable on their own, for the most part. That, in fact, it is a necessity (hence where I got the idea from) to max, or at least invest heavily, in not only a primary skill (or skills), but also one, or even several of its synergy skills, as well. Now, if this is not the case, even half the time, then I apologize for raising the issue, as it therefore would not have nearly as much impact as I had originally took it to have. If, however, the impression I got from the many accounts of other testers is in fact accurate, then my statements and questions regarding synergies being a necessity are valid.
I don't rightly see what having said or not said what I have done or intend to do in regards to balancing the skills has much of anything to do with my questions on synergies. The two are wholly seperate, yet at the same time linked. However, I wasn't looking for people to balance synergies for me, any more than I was looking for them to balance the skills in general. I was looking for ideas on how synergies should interact with other skills, and with one another. Don't confuse two seperate (though linked) issues.
As to your "generator only" ideas, I would be interested in hearing more about your ideas on that. Specifically, what skills, and how should they be altered? And, for that matter, what is so wrong with the Paladin granting the benefit of his auras to other players? How is that any different than, say, the Necromancer with his Curses? Why is it such a bad thing? I just don't understand this vehemient opposition to the Paladin's auras, and more specifically his synergy bonuses, being granted to others, especially since 99% of all synergies are based on the BASE skill levels, and thus do not gain benefit from +skill items. Amazons and Barbarians aren't getting anything they weren't getting before, from Paladin auras, so why the fierce opposition?
Actually, it's a core issue, since many people will follow in the same line of thinking, which is NOT the line of thinking that I go by. You are included among those who at least give the impression of thinking synergies are a necessity to be viable (is that clearer? Synergies being a necessity to be VIABLE in Hell difficulty), even if that is not what you believe. To hear suggestions on how to balance synergies when people are making the assumption that they are a necessity to viability can only lead me down the wrong path, and thus wastes my time, and the contributors, which is not something I want to do.
And once again you spout off without giving a single, credible example as to what you are talking about. Just what, precisely, do you mean? I can see your point about plugging synergies together based on aesthetic value, but truly, that is how most of the skill layouts were made in the first place! To ignore that is to ignore the entire base setup of the skills, which is utterly foolish. And please, do give at least SOME examples, and go further into details, on where you see "two skills with an additive combination compared with two skills that multiply". I'm truly intrigued.
Alright. Let's get back to something that was touched upon, by yourself and myself, earlier on. How do we utilize synergies to make current less-than-desirable / -viable skills more attractive and viable? Do we pick certain sets of skills to be synergistic with one another, thereby granting the user a primary and secondary skill on one little package, while ALSO running into that other wall we did not want (namely, forcing players down pre-planned skill pathways)?
It's a tough path to tread, but it doesn't HAVE to be so black & white as you are painting it. Maybe it's because you've never done modding before, or maybe you're just too stuck in your own way of thinking and viewing to see "outside the box", so to speak, but I just don't see that synergies have to be this all-or-nothing thing, where they're either an absolute necessity or a game-breaking imbalance. There HAS to be a middle road. My problem with you is you either can't or won't see that.
Give me one example. Please do show me where these huge, glaring imbalances, these game-breaking elements, come into play due to our input on synergies. I'd love to hear this, because frankly I just don't see it. Or, rather, I don't see ONLY that, unlike you. Enlighten me, or give it your best shot. Maybe one of us will walk away with a few new things to ponder.
Quote:And yet without any mention of how you have balanced or intend to balance the underlying skills themselves, you pose a question regarding synergies. Also many of my points about imbalancing factors with synergies can be largely taken care of after reading the information on caster/generator-only aspects available to skills, so see why you are bringing them back up.
I don't rightly see what having said or not said what I have done or intend to do in regards to balancing the skills has much of anything to do with my questions on synergies. The two are wholly seperate, yet at the same time linked. However, I wasn't looking for people to balance synergies for me, any more than I was looking for them to balance the skills in general. I was looking for ideas on how synergies should interact with other skills, and with one another. Don't confuse two seperate (though linked) issues.
As to your "generator only" ideas, I would be interested in hearing more about your ideas on that. Specifically, what skills, and how should they be altered? And, for that matter, what is so wrong with the Paladin granting the benefit of his auras to other players? How is that any different than, say, the Necromancer with his Curses? Why is it such a bad thing? I just don't understand this vehemient opposition to the Paladin's auras, and more specifically his synergy bonuses, being granted to others, especially since 99% of all synergies are based on the BASE skill levels, and thus do not gain benefit from +skill items. Amazons and Barbarians aren't getting anything they weren't getting before, from Paladin auras, so why the fierce opposition?
Quote:Wait a minute. You asked about synergies. People debated them in the belief that you intended to explore their use. Whether Blizzard thinks of them as necessary or not is not the issue here. You asked. I gave some answers.
Actually, it's a core issue, since many people will follow in the same line of thinking, which is NOT the line of thinking that I go by. You are included among those who at least give the impression of thinking synergies are a necessity to be viable (is that clearer? Synergies being a necessity to be VIABLE in Hell difficulty), even if that is not what you believe. To hear suggestions on how to balance synergies when people are making the assumption that they are a necessity to viability can only lead me down the wrong path, and thus wastes my time, and the contributors, which is not something I want to do.
Quote:My criticisms, which are another matter entirely, stem from having looked at the way skills interact with eachother and determining that two combined skills with an additive combination compared with two skills that multiply are never going to be balanced. Looking at what Blizzard put in 1.10, I see other people have reached the same conclusion and taken a little more care in certain areas. Reading this thread I see most people here have not reached the same conclusion and continue to put things together based purely on aesthetic value, with little exploration into potential imbalance hazards.
And once again you spout off without giving a single, credible example as to what you are talking about. Just what, precisely, do you mean? I can see your point about plugging synergies together based on aesthetic value, but truly, that is how most of the skill layouts were made in the first place! To ignore that is to ignore the entire base setup of the skills, which is utterly foolish. And please, do give at least SOME examples, and go further into details, on where you see "two skills with an additive combination compared with two skills that multiply". I'm truly intrigued.
Quote:No, I think the real question is take them out or leave them in. The moment they are in they become a necessity. "Bonus" is too easily another word for "exploit".
Alright. Let's get back to something that was touched upon, by yourself and myself, earlier on. How do we utilize synergies to make current less-than-desirable / -viable skills more attractive and viable? Do we pick certain sets of skills to be synergistic with one another, thereby granting the user a primary and secondary skill on one little package, while ALSO running into that other wall we did not want (namely, forcing players down pre-planned skill pathways)?
It's a tough path to tread, but it doesn't HAVE to be so black & white as you are painting it. Maybe it's because you've never done modding before, or maybe you're just too stuck in your own way of thinking and viewing to see "outside the box", so to speak, but I just don't see that synergies have to be this all-or-nothing thing, where they're either an absolute necessity or a game-breaking imbalance. There HAS to be a middle road. My problem with you is you either can't or won't see that.
Quote:Yes I am critical, because most of the suggestions I've read so far look like some of my earliest ideas, before I started exploring how they work out under various conditions and realized they weren't going to work and retain balance. Then I noticed some of the ideas I saw failures in were the same ones that Blizzard had also avoided like the plague.
Surprise, surprise.
And then to my horror, I read posts that describe embracing the same game-wrecking concepts I'd already discarded. :blink: Is it any surprise then that my responses to those posts come off as critical??? ;)
Give me one example. Please do show me where these huge, glaring imbalances, these game-breaking elements, come into play due to our input on synergies. I'd love to hear this, because frankly I just don't see it. Or, rather, I don't see ONLY that, unlike you. Enlighten me, or give it your best shot. Maybe one of us will walk away with a few new things to ponder.
Roland *The Gunslinger*