This is why Westboro Baptist Church is a joke
#79
(10-12-2011, 12:12 AM)FireIceTalon Wrote: Society does indeed need a common set of rules and ethics to abide by, but it shouldn't be based on a religion, as so many citizens here seem to think. Because that implies that you need to be religious to be moral, and that simply isn't the case.
It's not that black and white. St. Thomas Aquinas is essentially the guy who wrote the book on ethics within the early Christian church, but he stood on the shoulders of Aristotle. Modern philosophers, like John Locke, Thomas Hobbes, or more recently, Phillipa Foot, stand on the shoulders of Thomas Aquinas. So, you might reject the portions of St. Thomas's work that relate to divine law, but his work on natural law, and human law are still relevant. In her book, Natural Goodness, Foot shows how justice and benevolence "suit" human beings, and there is no reason to accept the critique of Nietzsche in this case (she specifically addresses his work). Her life work is the exploration of why we should be moral. What you seem to oppose is the concept of supernatural deity, and not necessarily religion, such as say, Confucianism, or Taoist philosophy. So, I guess my point is that both the schools of western and eastern philosophy are grounded in religious scholarship.

Quote:As an atheist, I have my own set of values, but I'm also pragmatic and realize that there are universally right and wrong actions, that should be seen as conventional wisdom in a rule of law society.
And, I would say they have an origin somewhere. The universe didn't just speak to you about it's life rules. If nothing else, you are constrained by the "rules of our society" which are Judeo-Christian in origin. Were you to have been raised in one of the Korowai tribe of south-eastern Papua you might have an entirely different moral and ethical code. Which one would be the right one?

Quote:We don't need an establishment of any type of religion to promote this, and in fact, I'm going to agree with Nietzsche and say that such establishments only create a "herd mentality" (which has indeed happened in the USA, a form of mental slavery if you will).
And... I would say the herd mentality is good for a society when it subscribes to those mores and ethics that result in "goodness". China has experienced periods of peaceful coexistence for as much as 500 years at a time. It depends on what you view as an "ideal" for your society. I find the biggest flaw with Nietzsche is that all there is in his view are interpretations, but no original message, there are no truths because its based on perspective, there is no objective reality, only a subjective individual perspective.

Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote, "By assigning value and spiritual ideals to private subjectivity, the materialistic world view ... threatens to undermine any secure objective foundation for morality. The result is the widespread moral degeneration that we witness today. To counter this tendency, mere moral exhortation is insufficient. If morality is to function as an efficient guide to conduct, it cannot be propounded as a self-justifying scheme but must be embedded in a more comprehensive spiritual system which grounds morality in a transpersonal order. Religion must affirm, in the clearest terms, that morality and ethical values are not mere decorative frills of personal opinion, not subjective superstructure, but intrinsic laws of the cosmos built into the heart of reality."

The idea of mental slavery might apply to the shallow practice of "blind faith" with an empty mind, but that is not what I would view as a true adherent of any religion. If they don't know what it's about, then they do not believe in anything except doing what they are told. I would say that everyone needs to learn how to engage in critical thinking.

Quote:At its best, a religious establishment as the code of ethics and morality for society creates divisiveness within that society, and between different societies themselves.
Well, I wouldn't say that is "at its best". At it's best it promotes social harmony. I would consider the Dalai Lama as a modern example of what we might aspire to in consideration of social harmony.

Quote: At its worst, it undermines democracy.
You will need to elaborate.

”There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio.

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RE: This is why Westboro Baptist Church is a joke - by kandrathe - 10-12-2011, 05:57 AM

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