07-07-2003, 02:49 AM
Thats a much longer post than I was expecting in response, but *shrug* I'll go at it with some slightly bigger chunks and see how it turns out.
EXACTLY! Strategy is not something that has truly existed in Diablo 2... Ever really. You know what I found when I grabbed a test sorc and ran around Act 5 Hell for a little while for? I was strategizing. Going in there and blitzing through everything wasn't working. I chose Hydra as a primary skill, and when there weren't FI monsters around - it killed effectively if I used it correctly. By using it correctly I don't mean just lying down a hydra every two seconds, I mean stacking them, I mean setting up a crossfire, I mean laying down a few while I retreat and drawing enemies into their fire. I mean hiding myself behind the corner while I spam them around, I mean dodging arrows and spells using teleport, I mean all of that. I had more fun in the few hours that I played that test sorc than I have had in a LONG time playing D2. It was a blast, it was a lot of fun to play. I had to pick and choose my battle-ground, my spells, I had to retreat, regroup, contain, and attack. THAT is strategy, that is using your environment and your skill to your advantage
Variation, discoveries of quirks and better combos, 'features' if you will are not strategy. Strategy is what I described above. Have you read some of Sirian's stuff? Particularly Ember? Temping fate is tactics, that's outmanuevering your opponent in a situation in order to kick his arse. On the other hand, herding is a strategy, it is breaking down the enemy into smaller, more managable chunks. There has always been strategy in Diablo 2, you just had to look for it and work at it. I believe that 1.10 is going to force strategy down B.net's throat. I think its going to seperate the men from the boys as far as it concerns hell. You'll be able to run around and kick butt through nightmare, but hell I think will remain the smart mans game, I think it will remain there as a challange to those who really want it, to those who really need that extra bit of death and destruction in their characters lives. That little extra bit that requires extra thought, extra effort, and extra time.
Party play is similar. I tend to stick with the same group of people when I party, and it works well. In a group of level-headed people with brains they use their skills effectively, they work as a team, and we accomplish lots more. For example, I've seen ancients killed with some extremely tough mods several times by a good group, without deaths. Another example being MSLEB's that we decided had to die going down bit by bit until it keeled over. Strategy in a party is knowing when to use what skills, when to back down, when to provide cover, and when to run for the hills.
Now, for this huge hunk of text ;).
Incredibly late? Yes. Half-assed? I'd say it is underfunded. Uninspired? I would hope not. Yeah, the beta seems like it was thrown out - and it likely was. They make everyone happy with this: they throw the D2 users a bone, and they give FT users a much less laggy b.net. We get the chance to test and play to our desire and Blizzard has a much lighter load on their servers for the all-important FT release. *shrug* I'll take it, D2 1.10 is better than D2 1.09.
As for the hacks, the dupes, the iths, and all that. Your right. They should've been done away with a LONG time ago. Far too long actually. That was a failure in the CS department of Blizzard. A complete and total failure. Now that "Rust Storm" has been announced and is in its beginnings, I hope that it ends. I hope that all the cheaters get banned. Permanently. I'm like every other lounger, hacks should never be permitted. Ever. Never be allowed, turned a blind eye to, or anything else that means ignore them. But now I'm getting way off, so I'll come back to everything else.
As for crawling around act 3 and the like finding all the gear, I will ask you here: why would you want to play the game in a way that was unintended, unsupported, and looked down upon by the company? We've been calling for "added difficulty" for years now (literally!) and now that we finally have it your saying that you've been skipping over the most difficult part of the game for 3 years? Whats the point?! That is like making a variant character and breaking the rules.
Finally, I'll bring some emphasis to your words here...
In case you missed the forum rules, hacks of any and all kinds are *forbidden* and will get you banned. Just emphasizing that because I for one don't want to spend my time playing with cheaters. If the only reason you stopped using maphack is because Blizzard started banning accounts, you probably don't belong here on this forum. You probably should head elsewhere, like diabloii.net, or the battle.net forums. If you have reformed - then congrats, your not the only one. Stick around and you might learn some of the strategy that I've so professed will be essential to survival in hell. It will be, and I believe that strategy will be much more effecient than just sitting there 'chugging pots' as you so eloquently put it.
Just my take,
Baylan
Quote:Yes, there will be some variation, yes there will probably be a few discoveries of useful quirks, or better combos, but you know what? Blizzard hasn't changed or improved the gameplay much. Given the massive increases in monster hp and regen (I don't see much development of AI) all those synergies are just damage boosters, and many of them stupid ones at that. Parties will work pretty much the same as they have before, the only real change is that Blizzard has forced party play down our collective throats.
When I play 1.10 with friends, dabbling in 'new' possibilities and such, new combonations, do you know what I find? It's the same thing. I just have to drink more pots, retreat, and stand in front of the same monsters for much longer. Boring. Tedius. Frustrating. I think in 3 years Blizzard could have come up with a more elegant solution to game difficulty besides just giving everything more life and damage. That was a monster post, wasn't expecting something that long in return - but I'll respond as best I can. I'm aching to get back to chess and 1.10 :-)
I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think many people tend to overexagerate the amount of "strategy" that exists in D2. Speaking strictly for myself, the game is not exactly one that requires thinking. It's hack and slash, always has been, and it was designed as such. I don't believe that 1.10 will create that 'beautiful strategy' you bring up. "Strategy" will be finding the 1 or 2 skills that are the new showstoppers, that work much better than the rest.
EXACTLY! Strategy is not something that has truly existed in Diablo 2... Ever really. You know what I found when I grabbed a test sorc and ran around Act 5 Hell for a little while for? I was strategizing. Going in there and blitzing through everything wasn't working. I chose Hydra as a primary skill, and when there weren't FI monsters around - it killed effectively if I used it correctly. By using it correctly I don't mean just lying down a hydra every two seconds, I mean stacking them, I mean setting up a crossfire, I mean laying down a few while I retreat and drawing enemies into their fire. I mean hiding myself behind the corner while I spam them around, I mean dodging arrows and spells using teleport, I mean all of that. I had more fun in the few hours that I played that test sorc than I have had in a LONG time playing D2. It was a blast, it was a lot of fun to play. I had to pick and choose my battle-ground, my spells, I had to retreat, regroup, contain, and attack. THAT is strategy, that is using your environment and your skill to your advantage
Quote:Yes, there will be some variation, yes there will probably be a few discoveries of useful quirks, or better combos, but you know what? Blizzard hasn't changed or improved the gameplay much. Given the massive increases in monster hp and regen (I don't see much development of AI) all those synergies are just damage boosters, and many of them stupid ones at that. Parties will work pretty much the same as they have before, the only real change is that Blizzard has forced party play down our collective throats.
When I play 1.10 with friends, dabbling in 'new' possibilities and such, new combonations, do you know what I find? It's the same thing. I just have to drink more pots, retreat, and stand in front of the same monsters for much longer. Boring. Tedius. Frustrating. I think in 3 years Blizzard could have come up with a more elegant solution to game difficulty besides just giving everything more life and damage.
Variation, discoveries of quirks and better combos, 'features' if you will are not strategy. Strategy is what I described above. Have you read some of Sirian's stuff? Particularly Ember? Temping fate is tactics, that's outmanuevering your opponent in a situation in order to kick his arse. On the other hand, herding is a strategy, it is breaking down the enemy into smaller, more managable chunks. There has always been strategy in Diablo 2, you just had to look for it and work at it. I believe that 1.10 is going to force strategy down B.net's throat. I think its going to seperate the men from the boys as far as it concerns hell. You'll be able to run around and kick butt through nightmare, but hell I think will remain the smart mans game, I think it will remain there as a challange to those who really want it, to those who really need that extra bit of death and destruction in their characters lives. That little extra bit that requires extra thought, extra effort, and extra time.
Party play is similar. I tend to stick with the same group of people when I party, and it works well. In a group of level-headed people with brains they use their skills effectively, they work as a team, and we accomplish lots more. For example, I've seen ancients killed with some extremely tough mods several times by a good group, without deaths. Another example being MSLEB's that we decided had to die going down bit by bit until it keeled over. Strategy in a party is knowing when to use what skills, when to back down, when to provide cover, and when to run for the hills.
Quote:I'd say the patch was incredibly late, not impossible. I think you unintentionally summed it up with the words "throw out". Thats exactly what 1.10 is, a half-assed, untested, unispired lump thrown out to the masses. 1.10 was supposed to be a quick followup to 1.09 to fix the GLARINGLY obvious imbalances (many of which are still in 1.10) and toss in a few new items. Thats not exactly hard work and toil for 2 years. Or maybe it is? I might be completely wrong here, but I think a few dozen half baked synergies, random monsters, bumping up hp and regen, and a few formulas and items doesn't constitute much considering this patch has been 'in progress' since a few months after the xpac release.
Let me clear up that last bit. Yes, those are some significant changes, but many of those were supposed to be included in the first place. Remember the idea of releasing a few new runewords from time to time? Remember ladder resets? How about cleaning up the boatload of hacks and dupes? What about pindlebots? What about meeting players players halfway on certain issues (and I know many will disagree on this one). Personally, I think maphack loused up the game in many ways. At the same time, I thought it had some useful features like the ability to see how many sockets were on an item, drop hack protection, and to some extent, the reveal map. It definately became a crutch, but I for one, don't want to spend 2 hours crawling around the jungle on EVERY single character to get a khalim's will. Maybe the simple idea of being able to find map chunks, a la legend of zelda? Walk into a dungeon, be able to find parts of maps that reveal a chunk of a map, or maybe even just the direction of the boss? Or again, how about looking at the necro for 5 minutes? I know there are too many things to consider, but some of them are pretty obvious, and it would have been nice to see a bit of innovation on Blizzard's part.
Now, for this huge hunk of text ;).
Incredibly late? Yes. Half-assed? I'd say it is underfunded. Uninspired? I would hope not. Yeah, the beta seems like it was thrown out - and it likely was. They make everyone happy with this: they throw the D2 users a bone, and they give FT users a much less laggy b.net. We get the chance to test and play to our desire and Blizzard has a much lighter load on their servers for the all-important FT release. *shrug* I'll take it, D2 1.10 is better than D2 1.09.
As for the hacks, the dupes, the iths, and all that. Your right. They should've been done away with a LONG time ago. Far too long actually. That was a failure in the CS department of Blizzard. A complete and total failure. Now that "Rust Storm" has been announced and is in its beginnings, I hope that it ends. I hope that all the cheaters get banned. Permanently. I'm like every other lounger, hacks should never be permitted. Ever. Never be allowed, turned a blind eye to, or anything else that means ignore them. But now I'm getting way off, so I'll come back to everything else.
As for crawling around act 3 and the like finding all the gear, I will ask you here: why would you want to play the game in a way that was unintended, unsupported, and looked down upon by the company? We've been calling for "added difficulty" for years now (literally!) and now that we finally have it your saying that you've been skipping over the most difficult part of the game for 3 years? Whats the point?! That is like making a variant character and breaking the rules.
Finally, I'll bring some emphasis to your words here...
Quote: Personally, I think maphack loused up the game in many ways. At the same time, I thought it had some useful features like the ability to see how many sockets were on an item, drop hack protection, and to some extent, the reveal map. It definately became a crutch, but I for one, don't want to spend 2 hours crawling around the jungle on EVERY single character to get a khalim's will.
In case you missed the forum rules, hacks of any and all kinds are *forbidden* and will get you banned. Just emphasizing that because I for one don't want to spend my time playing with cheaters. If the only reason you stopped using maphack is because Blizzard started banning accounts, you probably don't belong here on this forum. You probably should head elsewhere, like diabloii.net, or the battle.net forums. If you have reformed - then congrats, your not the only one. Stick around and you might learn some of the strategy that I've so professed will be essential to survival in hell. It will be, and I believe that strategy will be much more effecient than just sitting there 'chugging pots' as you so eloquently put it.
Just my take,
Baylan