03-02-2009, 06:07 AM
Hi,
So, your point is well taken, but (I think) not really debatable or even realistically discussable. We lack the information, the actual application of laws, and an objective measure for meaningful discourse. However, there is some indication in that, while many Europeans emigrated to the USA (admittedly, for many reasons), few went the other way.
Finally, as to the Pilgrims and other religious groups that helped found the colonies, I think they were looking more for a place where they would not have to put up with those that disagreed with them than they were looking for religious freedom. In every case, more members of all those groups stayed in Europe than moved to America. It was only, I think, the most intolerant that actually moved. But, of course, that opinion is held heretical by most Americans.
--Pete
Quote:Indeed this is what I tried to say. By the way *** the USA is no longer the sole, or even the principle, bastion of liberty*** I wonder if this no longer is a correct statement. It would indicate that it once was. Of course political times change, and the US has never been invaded since somewhere in the 18th century, but e.g. Holland had already religious freedom in the beginning of the 17th century.(I mean the pilgrim fathers came to Holland before the sailed to the americas.....maybe we had too much freedom for them here so tghey decided to move on:) ) The Prince-Bishopric of Liège got universal suffrage in 1792. In the Netherlands this was around 1920, however at that time there was the Tulsa-riot (I just read a book about that) indicating no real freedom for all.Of course there are other freedoms than religious. Also, I'm not sure how one measures freedom, what the 'unit' of freedom is, how it is assigned and how it is weighed for different 'applications' (how many units is the vote compared to a free press?). Finally, how much freedom was there in most of Europe during the Napoleonic wars?
Anyway I don't want to make this into a contest, but just as I reacted on meat I don't find the 'no longer' in that sentence fair. I think the US has just done a better job advertising.
So, your point is well taken, but (I think) not really debatable or even realistically discussable. We lack the information, the actual application of laws, and an objective measure for meaningful discourse. However, there is some indication in that, while many Europeans emigrated to the USA (admittedly, for many reasons), few went the other way.
Finally, as to the Pilgrims and other religious groups that helped found the colonies, I think they were looking more for a place where they would not have to put up with those that disagreed with them than they were looking for religious freedom. In every case, more members of all those groups stayed in Europe than moved to America. It was only, I think, the most intolerant that actually moved. But, of course, that opinion is held heretical by most Americans.
--Pete
How big was the aquarium in Noah's ark?