The Iraq War retrospective Thread

[kandrathe]

Rather than branch an already tortured thread, I thought I would reply to eppie here.

Like I have done before I ask you to check the Iraq war posts of 2003, and then come back with the 'own opinion and who is right' things.

Hindsight is 20/20. From before the war began up to this second, most of the people who were against it will believe, and will always believe the war to be a failure. What they never acknowledge is what the future would have brought had the war not been fought. In the bag of tricks of national interactions, negotiation is one and war is another. We have carrots and sticks, that's it. After a decade of carrot parades, the US decided to use the stick. We are not yet at that point in societal evolution where peace is always the answer. Wars are seldom justified, and are usually fought for resources. All the other frosting is to make the war palatable for the masses.

In hindsight,

• there were things that were done that should not have been done, <>
  
• there were things that should have been done that were not done, <>
  
• and things that might have been done better.<>
  [st] I would agree that the US pulled the trigger before the world/UN was convinced it was the right thing to do. I would agree that no WMD's were found, although I reserve that they were perhaps moved, buried, or destroyed. I would agree that the worlds intelligence communities totally muffed it. I would agree that the "Project for the New American Century" folks were keen on going to war with Iraq well before even their founding. With Bush Jr in power and him appointing many of those folks into key administration positions, they had the power to make the war happen. Unfortunately, full disclosure and the truth were also war casualties here. Had I known then, what I know now, would I still want an Iraq war? That depends on what the future would have been with a Mr. Hussein and sons still in power there. I think that picture is also bleak. Had the worlds nations have been willing to economically isolate Hussein then it might have worked. Had the UN not been complicit in smuggling then it might have worked. I think the net we had Hussein in was full of holes, and the US knew that in time he would be free. That is why I think we rushed to war. Now, having broke the thing, it was ours to fix. It would have been a legacy worse to have deposed and executed Hussein and company then left the field to civil war and decades of strife and death.
  
  My position now is that the US and some of our allies have so far spent 500 billion and thousands of precious lives securing and building a new Iraq, and that damn well better be an investment we are willing to follow through to its conclusion. I don't like spending my money on Iraq, but it was the right thing to do under the circumstances. At least with their oil reserves, and the prices the way they are, Iraq may pay us back within the decade. We should not fully leave Iraq until at least the bulk of the debt has been paid. The Balkans were just a write off, and thankfully we exited in 2004 after a decade of costs and reconstruction.
  
  Like Occhi, I'm a little bitter about GW's failure to walk his talk. "If we don't stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem." — George W. Bush, Jan. 2001.
  
  For comparison, here is a link to the costs of WWII (link). Of course, those costs are in 1945 dollars. For casualty comparison, consider the entire Iraq war casualties to the battle of Iwo Jima (link). How important is Iwo Jima today? Was it worth killing 20000 Japanese defenders? I'd still say it's too soon to know if the Iraq war is a success or not. Will Iraq emerge as a peace loving and prosperous thriving nation who resolves its grievances through the UN? I hope so. Now, if only the other security council members would also do the same. :)
  
  Consider Vietnam and Afghanistan, not as the struggles fought and lost over 20 years, but as the proxy wars between the USSR and the US. This outlet of steam in an otherwise tense period gave time for Communism as expressed in the totalitarian dictatorship, and Stalinesque way a chance to prove its shortcomings. Was Vietnam worth it, not for the Vietnamese. But, the free world nations maybe benefited from the halt of the spread of totalitarianism. Having shown your love for Castro, and Cuba's system, you might not believe that capitalism, democracy, and my quaint notions of freedom are things worth preserving. But, however quaint or bourgeoisie, I believe I prefer the outcome of the Cold War as it is now.
  
  So, was the Iraq war worth it? Time will tell. I don't think leaving it a mess is a proper strategy for a successful conclusion.
  
  One thing is certain, our politicians have not yet learned their lessons from 9/11, or the Iraq war. One lesson being, to focus and never relent from focusing on securing domestic tranquility. The linkage here is not that Iraq was involved in 9/11, rather that Iraq and 9/11 have forced the US to change. The story you never hear about is how the US military has transformed itself from the anti-Soviet cold war army into the small unit special forces focused organization better designed to deal with our current threats. Or, how military intelligence, CIA and FBI are coordinating forces to bring a unified approach to investigating threats both foreign and domestic. Unfortunately, my view of the Department of Homeland Security is that it will be a humongous money vacuum rife with waste, aimless and excessive spending for little or no gain. But, perhaps they will become the nimble reactive defenders of our borders. And, monkeys might also fly from my nether orifice.