06-04-2008, 05:44 PM
Quote:The point that I was making with Wright, and I believe Pete and Occhi are trying to make is that his words if transmogrified into White on Black speech would sound exactly like Duke. Now, Duke is a racist, Nazi, SOB. But, the part that is important is the racist part. The same kind of black racism exemplified by the "Hymie Town" comments of Jesse Jackson. Is Wright a racist? I'd say yes.
This ground was trampled hundreds of times in the last thread, so I won't go over it again. Needless to say, I don't think that Wright, if "transmogrified" into "White on Black" sounds anything like David Duke. Swapped "Black on White," Duke would be more extreme than Louis Farrakhan. I challenged you to find anything of Wright's that fits into that kind of category, and I can't say what you came up with was particularily convincing.
Quote: My other prior point you refused to see, was that for a religious leader to diverge from the accepted doctrine of his denomination is something that people like Jim Jones did. I'm not implying that Wright is going to haul off his congregation to a Kool Aid party in Guyana, just that its an indication of fringe beyond the fringe when you do that type of thing. By definition, he is a heretic to protestantism, but is he dangerous? I'd say no.
This was also hashed over in the other thread. I don't think this argument makes any sense at all. How is he a heretic, and who are you to say so when the church he is "heretical" from, the UCC, seems to still think he's just dandy.
Quote:Back to my original point. Obama used this church for political gain, and denounced it for political gain. You think he's the candidate for change? Because, that is exactly the kind of userous behavior I'd expect from the Clintons. It's all about Obama, and him not facing either the reality of saying "This is who I am, and what I believe", or saying "I really wasn't a believer in either Wright's politics or his heretical Christianity". So which is it Jester?
I like how you put your "heretical" argument in Obama's mouth. Very nice way to slip that in.
First, I don't think people who attend a church, any church, can be considered carbon copies of their pastors in all things. If you agree with 85% of what your pastor says, couldn't care less about 10%, and find 5% to be kooky, I don't think that's a particularily unusual situation.
Obama is clearly much more moderate than the firey, strident Wright, and he's from a different generation and cultural background. I think he was deeply attracted to the anti-poverty work, the anti-Apartheid and other anti-racism message, and the anti-violence message. Trinity United is inclusive and supportive of rights for gays and lesbians, for women, for people of all ethnicities. (How very David Duke of them.) Obama obviously found that attractive. It's a kind of Christianity that offers a lot of hope, even if it is served up with a side dish of a few conspiracy theories. This is true of, and worse in, a lot of churches.
The theology, I have no idea, but I obviously disagree with you that this is some kind of heresy, so I don't think that would be any particular issue for Obama. Seems pretty normal to me.
I suspect he probably heard some things in church, every few months, that raised an eyebrow. However, like most people in a church that's more radical than they are (in any sense) he likely just shrugged it off as a difference of opinion. I don't disown friends who believe the occasional kooky thing, Obama probably doesn't either.
Now, if you take all the nuttiest things Wright has said, broadcast them a zillion times, that's going to make him look bad. The last straw for Obama was when Wright, obviously a proud and opinionated man who enjoys the limelight, insisted on defending every one of his least-correct beliefs on television, notably the AIDS conspiracy, and the extremely bizarre belief that Black people are better at music because they think with the other side of their brain. (This, by the by, is one of the few examples of actual racism I can find from Wright, in the sense of a belief in fundamental differences between "races".) When it was all put together, and Wright was not apologetic for these beliefs, but rather was arrogant and belligerent about it, that was the end.
Did he decide to leave the church to protect the church from the media crapstorm? Out of disillusionment with Wright over his public stupidities? To make his own life easier on the campaign trail? I would suspect it was a little of all three, though I suspect the third made the first two seem a lot more pressing. I think he was gracious enough to give Wright some space to correct or shut up about his crazier beliefs, and instead he called a press conference and shouted them at the top of his lungs. I think Obama only gave him that space out of respect and long friendship, and I don't see him as having dealt with this opportunistically.
-Jester