Yet another religious cult raided

[Occhidiangela]

You have totally gone out to left field on misinterpreting my remarks. As the saying goes, "Projecting much?".:)

No, responding to your post. And no, not in left field. I thank you for taking the time to explain your position in more detail.

I made no such sweeping generalizations about a patriarchal model. In fact, I didn't even mention it.

You don't have to. It is the topic of the thread, the FLDS commune. It is a commune built upon a patriarchical, and I think authoritarian, social model.

I didn't even imply or base any conclusions on it. It's all you, bud.

See above, it is the topic of the thread, and thus the pivot point around which this conversation revolves.

However, since you've obviously missed what I'm saying, let me try to clarify it for you.

Not hardly. Let's run back the tape.

My position is that the emotional control the FLDS has over these women is so strong that this is [i]not a valid metric[/i].

Arbitrary assertion. I had to try and divine what imbedded assumptions you were making to arrive at that statement. The only projection I have seen in our last interchange is your projection of a bad value judgment on the women, the mothers in quesiton. (What's going on with the kids is a separate conversation.)

My original statement was "My position is that the emotional control the FLDS has over these women is so strong that this is not a valid metric." I was referring to the fact that most of the adult women had returned to the compound, and rebutting your conclusion that this was a sign the conditions were not bad.

You rebutted nothing. We agreed that they returned to the compound, you then assign an arbitrary value assessment for them based on your valuation of good and bad. I am not convinced either way, but with the both of us being outsiders to that movement, I am not willing to assume that the perception of "bad situation" that you assess -- sensibly, given your frame of reference -- matches those who have spent their lives in that social group.

To expand, the conditions may be very, very bad, but they could view returning as the best option because:
1. They are intentionally deprived of news from outside the compound, so any relative informed judgement is impossible.

That is not an element of emotional control. (It's certainly an element of control, if true.) Access to information and particuarly outside information is part of a controlling behavior. It's not too far a reach to uncover the "mind control" card being played here.

2. The outside world is continually demonized, again tilting the balance. Outside information is pre-judged to be wrong.

The assumption you seem to be making is that from the beginning, their position was that of enforced isolation from the outside world, rather than an elective one. On what do you base that?

3. They are taught from birth that their place in the culture is a subservient one.

Cultural indoctrination. Hindu are indoctrinated into the caste system. Is that emotional control, mind control, or something else?

4. In their experience, there is no second authority. Decisions are unchallengable, and not their job.

Quite possibly so, due to point three above.

5. They are conditioned to practices that make them feel different or better than outsiders. They are told they are a privileged elite. They dress differently and speak differently, so on occasions when they do interact with nonmembers, they are greeted with some adverse reactions.

How is this significantly different from other small and selective social groups?

6. They are faced with ample fears that limit their behavior
6a: The fear of being ejected from the community. They have no friends, allies or contacts outside the FLDS.
6b: The fear of losing their status in the community.
6c: The fear of losing their immortal soul, since only FLDS members are saved.
6d: The fear of outsiders in general.

Is the above what you are referring to as emotional control?

So based on what they believe to be true, returning to the compound is a rational choice even in the worst case, even if abuse is prevalent. No need to call them brainwashed or mind-controlled. They are information-starved.

Beyond your assumption that this is what they believe to be true, I follow your thought process clearly.

Why did you refer to emoitonal control in the first place? Is this based on the issue of their children being used against them?

This applies in a patriarchal model, a matriarchal model, just about any model you can think of that imposes a sole source of authority. The fact that the FLDS organizes patriarchally only defines one underclass; indeed, all of the above applies to the men, too.

No disagreement there, authoritarian social models have significant similarities, as you mentioned.

I heard on the radio today that each of the 416 children has to have his or her own attorney. This case looks to go on for sometime, so all sorts of information that will either confirm, or reverses, the assessments you have made will become available in due course.

I don't expect it to be pretty.

Occhi