01-16-2008, 06:41 PM
Quote:It's all relative. Many TBC fights are DPS races or at least DPS checks. If you are not at the point where you overgear the fights, then someone dying in an avoidable manner does mean a serious problem, and someone dying and wiping out a few others (via a bad shatter, for example) does mean a raid wipe. Especially if they take out a crucial person or two with them. I think these are the checks that make TBC raiding truly a team sport; they are what was missing from MC.
I think it really devalues the nature of the check required on Teron or Archimonde to call them in any way similar to avoiding Spout on Lurker or Shatter on Gruul. The DPS check on neither fight is particularly onerous, no matter your level of gear, and we know this because a lot of people kill those bosses. The reason they're widely killed by a variety of raiding groups isn't because they're easy to execute perfectly. Those two (along with Void Reaver) are common kills around the world because those fights sustain a very high level of screwing up without compromising the eventual outcome. People approaching them in Karazhan gear already significantly surpass the DPS check so long as not too many people die.
Let me re-emphasize that - not too many people. You can lose huge numbers of people on Gruul/Lurker/VR and still win. Furthermore, other people can cover for your failures to stay alive there - as a matter of fact, they are basically starting to cover for failure from the moment you go down. Healers have to heal over a missed assignment, DPS players need to do a bit more damage each, but it's hardly inconceivable that a missing person's job can be covered for in that way. Especially since the initial post includes the phrase "no one can ever cover for you" in the definition of things asked for, I find discussion of fights like that somewhat out of place.
Aside from that, there's simply an objective measurement to distinguish the fights. Dying to spout does not harm anyone else in a way that they wouldn't have been harmed had you not been there at all. Archimonde and Teron punish you with significant extra consequences to every other player in the raid, above and beyond just not having a player there. That, at least, I think is beyond perspective.