12-26-2007, 04:12 PM
>is domination an act of evil? I don't think so, and let me explain why:
Domination is not evil imo, -if- and only if it is done on someone who can not or will not control themselves and starts to endanger others. Or in a game of intergalactic pod racing featuring precocious child slaves.
>... But a NECCESSARY evil whom without, we would have nothing we have today.
What did Obi Wan guy say again, he heard a million voices suddenly crying out then nothing? Now what if one of those voices were, before they snuffed out were on the verge of finding the key to the cure for cancer? Ok in the spirit of the genre, space cancer.
While I do hold that war or war like condition can actually speed up a certain kind of progress, there are better ways in fostering development other than a literal do or die situation.
>the Rebels recruited people such as Han Solo, we well known criminal,
Han Solo was an outlaw, not really a criminal IMO. Jabba was a criminal, yet he was more within the law than someone like Han. And IIRC, Han was deemed an outlaw because he opposed slavery and slave labour. I don't know about you or anyone else, but I'd like to think that in a galaxy far far away, I'd become a 'criminal' too if it means fighting the Empire's slavery. Free the Wookies!
> Sounds more like a band of terrorists to me. They never show Darth or the Emperor negotiation peace treaties or trade agreements - and you know they must!
Oh but they did show the result of one trade agreements didn't they? Just ask one Lando Calrisian on his sweetheart deal he got with ole respirator breath with the force choke fetish.
> You can try to reason that the Empire just bullied everyone into submission but I don't agree. If the Empire was such a tyrannical force, then they would not have so many storm troopers working for them after they stopped making clones after Epi. 3. Historically, there are always special interest groups conquerers are willing to barter with to make a better society, but these are not shown.
I would guess that Empire recruited so much cannon fodder because the alternative the recruits are facing probably sucks in comparison. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Palpatine dangled a fast track to citizenship in the Empire for military service. And a little patch to call home on whatever Force forsaken outer rim territory should a troop reach retirement or honourable discharge. Though at the rate they're going, Palpatine can promise them a choice island on Naboo since he knows very few, if any troopers would reach retirement.
For all their reputation, Palpatine's combat troops seems to be given poor marksmanship training, and I wouldn't be surprised if a crooked intergalactic contractor severely shortchanged the troops armor considering an ewok with a rock can clobber one dead.
>Perhaps Palpatine was also a great diplomat (as seen in the 1st and 2nd movie) when he ran the empire, and the movies only show the few times he was fed up with the rebels.
Palpatine was a great politician at one point, considering he knows he will win no matter who emerged victorious, the Droid army or the Clone army. As long as it eliminates a lot of Jedis, Palpatine FTW (at least for a while). And like the arrogant and complacent suckers that they were, most of the Jedis fell for it.
>3) I don't believe the Emperor was just trying to conquer the galaxy so he could 'torture' and 'enslave' his "empire". No, rather I offer you this vision of his ultimate empire: A galaxy controlled solely by him where any resistance would be squashed instantly, and in return, a strong, peaceful galaxy under one galactic rule! If you ever the Star Wars books and knew of that invasion force that came from another galaxy that was immune to the force (sorry, such a long time ago - can't remember the name of them), they would have been stopped DEAD-IN-THEIR-TRACKS had the galaxy been united. Yes, the Emperor was a visionary, ahead of his time.
Palpatine's so far ahead, his cranium actually loops around and reaches his exhaust vent-hole. There's some strength in the idea of a monoculture, but also a glaring weakness. Assuming he could actually crush all dissent or resistance or any counter-culture, he's also crushing a potential hidden ace up his sleeve.
Here's a hypothetical scene. The Mandalorians are getting uppity, let's get rid of all of them. Oops, it turns out they would've been the perfect countermeasure for a new invasion force that laughs at Force powers but are not immune to a good blaster in the face. It's really too bad we killed off the Mandalorians, because the Empire could sure use a few (thousand) clone soldiers right about now. Or maybe the new invaders are deathly scared of fighter droids. Ooops, now did we kill off the Techno Union? Didn't they use to be really good at churning them out? Why are they not answering my calls?! Vader, you choked them? All of them? Ok then...do you have a lot of INXS on your holocron player by any chance. Why am I asking? Just curious as all.
> The main argument I get from people (other than his manipulation of people, which is no different than any other leader, even by todays standards) is how he gave Vader authorization to blow up planet Alderon, a peaceful civilization, technically committing mass genocide. My response to this is that in every conquering crusade, there are groups or societies that refuse to blend into the new order (i.e. the Scotts and Britain, the North American Indians and the Spaniards, etcetera, etc...). Alderon must have been sympathetic to the rebels and a possible strategic location for the Rebels since it was assumed no one would attack it. Evil? Perhaps, but a pure strategic move, and one that would has hopefully loosened Princess Leia's tongue.
See I think this is one of his fatal mistake. Alderon's kablooueing up could be seen as a rallying point and legitimized the rebel movement. Planets and species that was not happy under the yoke of the empire but still liked being alive realized they might not have anything more to lose, with Alderon being obliterated. Alderon might have been the trigger that convinced the normally gentle Mon Calamaris to rise up and join the rebel alliance, and giving the previously rag tag fleet some needed numbers. And one thing you don't want to face, is an enemy who is not afraid to die.
Instead of silencing the peasants, it might have backfired right in his highness's face. Remember t3h Alderon!!!1111 FREEDOM!!!!111
> No, in my opinion, the Emperor was the true hero here and the rebels were the equivalent to modern day terrorists.
See to me, Pulpyteeth commited a few, but fatal mistakes common to a lot of megalomaniacal space dictators.
1) He -used- the Death Star, which imo functions much better as a deterrent weapon or a stylish armada destroyer, and he used it on a weakling planet instead of a stronger and more uppity one. I propose this action gave more sympathy to the rebel cause instead of silencing dissent.
2) He put form over function, see lack of handrails in Death Star architecture and the dangers caused by.
3) He cut back on training and gear for his troops, and instead relied on 'reputation' aka propaganda. Reputation only goes so far before an Ewok with a slingshot and a rock takes down a space trooper.
Not to mention his officers training are also, kind of weak. Papadon'tpreachateen seems to favour a system where officers gain higher rank by blindly following orders. There's chain of command, and then there's yes men. The price Pulpabeen paid for that is a lot of choked to death officers, and officers commanding their star destroyers to stay put and hold a stupidly vulnerable position, -despite- an opportunity to crush the rebellion armada once and for all, because the emperor wants to put on a special laser light show for Luke.
4) He overestimated the strength of a monoculture, and ignored it's weaknesses.
5) He got impatient. Dissolving the Senate in one fell swoop was a mistake. He should've kept them, but keep them corrupt and lazy and impotent. Removing it all at once made the frog jump out of the pot of boiling water. He should've kept it simmering slowly, until it generated sufficient apathy that all citizens of the Empire pretty much ignores the Galactic Space Senate by their own will.
So my opinionated answer to your question is, I think the Emperor is not good at Evil. Many of his succesess was to me, thanks due to the Jedi's shortcomings. While it does take a respectable level of skill to recognize an opponent's weakness and exploit it, I wouldn't go overboard and say it's all due to Palpitations great skill overall.
I'm not sure if he's entirely bad at being Evil, but in the longer term and tactically speaking, I think he's incompetent. How long was his reign, probably 20 years or so? Considering the amount of work and the (long life)time he spent on it, that's not a very long time he spent on the throne.
Domination is not evil imo, -if- and only if it is done on someone who can not or will not control themselves and starts to endanger others. Or in a game of intergalactic pod racing featuring precocious child slaves.
>... But a NECCESSARY evil whom without, we would have nothing we have today.
What did Obi Wan guy say again, he heard a million voices suddenly crying out then nothing? Now what if one of those voices were, before they snuffed out were on the verge of finding the key to the cure for cancer? Ok in the spirit of the genre, space cancer.
While I do hold that war or war like condition can actually speed up a certain kind of progress, there are better ways in fostering development other than a literal do or die situation.
>the Rebels recruited people such as Han Solo, we well known criminal,
Han Solo was an outlaw, not really a criminal IMO. Jabba was a criminal, yet he was more within the law than someone like Han. And IIRC, Han was deemed an outlaw because he opposed slavery and slave labour. I don't know about you or anyone else, but I'd like to think that in a galaxy far far away, I'd become a 'criminal' too if it means fighting the Empire's slavery. Free the Wookies!
> Sounds more like a band of terrorists to me. They never show Darth or the Emperor negotiation peace treaties or trade agreements - and you know they must!
Oh but they did show the result of one trade agreements didn't they? Just ask one Lando Calrisian on his sweetheart deal he got with ole respirator breath with the force choke fetish.
> You can try to reason that the Empire just bullied everyone into submission but I don't agree. If the Empire was such a tyrannical force, then they would not have so many storm troopers working for them after they stopped making clones after Epi. 3. Historically, there are always special interest groups conquerers are willing to barter with to make a better society, but these are not shown.
I would guess that Empire recruited so much cannon fodder because the alternative the recruits are facing probably sucks in comparison. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Palpatine dangled a fast track to citizenship in the Empire for military service. And a little patch to call home on whatever Force forsaken outer rim territory should a troop reach retirement or honourable discharge. Though at the rate they're going, Palpatine can promise them a choice island on Naboo since he knows very few, if any troopers would reach retirement.
For all their reputation, Palpatine's combat troops seems to be given poor marksmanship training, and I wouldn't be surprised if a crooked intergalactic contractor severely shortchanged the troops armor considering an ewok with a rock can clobber one dead.
>Perhaps Palpatine was also a great diplomat (as seen in the 1st and 2nd movie) when he ran the empire, and the movies only show the few times he was fed up with the rebels.
Palpatine was a great politician at one point, considering he knows he will win no matter who emerged victorious, the Droid army or the Clone army. As long as it eliminates a lot of Jedis, Palpatine FTW (at least for a while). And like the arrogant and complacent suckers that they were, most of the Jedis fell for it.
>3) I don't believe the Emperor was just trying to conquer the galaxy so he could 'torture' and 'enslave' his "empire". No, rather I offer you this vision of his ultimate empire: A galaxy controlled solely by him where any resistance would be squashed instantly, and in return, a strong, peaceful galaxy under one galactic rule! If you ever the Star Wars books and knew of that invasion force that came from another galaxy that was immune to the force (sorry, such a long time ago - can't remember the name of them), they would have been stopped DEAD-IN-THEIR-TRACKS had the galaxy been united. Yes, the Emperor was a visionary, ahead of his time.
Palpatine's so far ahead, his cranium actually loops around and reaches his exhaust vent-hole. There's some strength in the idea of a monoculture, but also a glaring weakness. Assuming he could actually crush all dissent or resistance or any counter-culture, he's also crushing a potential hidden ace up his sleeve.
Here's a hypothetical scene. The Mandalorians are getting uppity, let's get rid of all of them. Oops, it turns out they would've been the perfect countermeasure for a new invasion force that laughs at Force powers but are not immune to a good blaster in the face. It's really too bad we killed off the Mandalorians, because the Empire could sure use a few (thousand) clone soldiers right about now. Or maybe the new invaders are deathly scared of fighter droids. Ooops, now did we kill off the Techno Union? Didn't they use to be really good at churning them out? Why are they not answering my calls?! Vader, you choked them? All of them? Ok then...do you have a lot of INXS on your holocron player by any chance. Why am I asking? Just curious as all.
> The main argument I get from people (other than his manipulation of people, which is no different than any other leader, even by todays standards) is how he gave Vader authorization to blow up planet Alderon, a peaceful civilization, technically committing mass genocide. My response to this is that in every conquering crusade, there are groups or societies that refuse to blend into the new order (i.e. the Scotts and Britain, the North American Indians and the Spaniards, etcetera, etc...). Alderon must have been sympathetic to the rebels and a possible strategic location for the Rebels since it was assumed no one would attack it. Evil? Perhaps, but a pure strategic move, and one that would has hopefully loosened Princess Leia's tongue.
See I think this is one of his fatal mistake. Alderon's kablooueing up could be seen as a rallying point and legitimized the rebel movement. Planets and species that was not happy under the yoke of the empire but still liked being alive realized they might not have anything more to lose, with Alderon being obliterated. Alderon might have been the trigger that convinced the normally gentle Mon Calamaris to rise up and join the rebel alliance, and giving the previously rag tag fleet some needed numbers. And one thing you don't want to face, is an enemy who is not afraid to die.
Instead of silencing the peasants, it might have backfired right in his highness's face. Remember t3h Alderon!!!1111 FREEDOM!!!!111
> No, in my opinion, the Emperor was the true hero here and the rebels were the equivalent to modern day terrorists.
See to me, Pulpyteeth commited a few, but fatal mistakes common to a lot of megalomaniacal space dictators.
1) He -used- the Death Star, which imo functions much better as a deterrent weapon or a stylish armada destroyer, and he used it on a weakling planet instead of a stronger and more uppity one. I propose this action gave more sympathy to the rebel cause instead of silencing dissent.
2) He put form over function, see lack of handrails in Death Star architecture and the dangers caused by.
3) He cut back on training and gear for his troops, and instead relied on 'reputation' aka propaganda. Reputation only goes so far before an Ewok with a slingshot and a rock takes down a space trooper.
Not to mention his officers training are also, kind of weak. Papadon'tpreachateen seems to favour a system where officers gain higher rank by blindly following orders. There's chain of command, and then there's yes men. The price Pulpabeen paid for that is a lot of choked to death officers, and officers commanding their star destroyers to stay put and hold a stupidly vulnerable position, -despite- an opportunity to crush the rebellion armada once and for all, because the emperor wants to put on a special laser light show for Luke.
4) He overestimated the strength of a monoculture, and ignored it's weaknesses.
5) He got impatient. Dissolving the Senate in one fell swoop was a mistake. He should've kept them, but keep them corrupt and lazy and impotent. Removing it all at once made the frog jump out of the pot of boiling water. He should've kept it simmering slowly, until it generated sufficient apathy that all citizens of the Empire pretty much ignores the Galactic Space Senate by their own will.
So my opinionated answer to your question is, I think the Emperor is not good at Evil. Many of his succesess was to me, thanks due to the Jedi's shortcomings. While it does take a respectable level of skill to recognize an opponent's weakness and exploit it, I wouldn't go overboard and say it's all due to Palpitations great skill overall.
I'm not sure if he's entirely bad at being Evil, but in the longer term and tactically speaking, I think he's incompetent. How long was his reign, probably 20 years or so? Considering the amount of work and the (long life)time he spent on it, that's not a very long time he spent on the throne.