09-22-2007, 06:58 AM
I'm finding myself becoming torn about talent builds again. Here are the two choices going through my mind
0/49/12 VS 0/38/23
My plan was to go 0/49/12 and to run retribution aura while tanking. As I get better and better gear retribution aura will start procing less since I will be avoiding more hits. So this made me start debating my aura choice. Devotion aura has always seemed rather unimpressive as well. This led me down the path to the second build. It gives me access to improved sanctity aura which gives 10% more holy damage and 2% more total damage. So where retribution gets worse with better gearing, sanctity gets better as your gear improves. In addition, retribution does almost nothing for the rest of the group since they shouldn't be getting hit. Improved sanctity gives 2% more damage to the rest of the group and so thus is of use there. Given the choice between the two auras I'm really starting to lean towards sanctity. I'd like to hear thoughts from other people on this though. I've never seen it used at all in game and so there has to be reasons why.
Now its not actually a straight swap though. Other talents are lost and gained so that has to be considered as well. The switch means losing avenger's shield, ardent defender, and either anticipation or reckoning. meanwhile it gains sanctity aura, the improvement for it, crusade, pursuit of justice, and vindication. First I'll talk about the losses.
Avenger's shield: It gives a good head start on aggro, kills runners, and can be fit in many other times as well. So its a good solid talent that does help a good amount. In my mind its the one big loss from the switch. I have been noticing that it is quite the mana hog though. Now I'm not geared yet (only lvl 53 so this is all theory) and so that could be why it feels like a hog. I'm just unsure that I will really miss the skill. It'll help for sure in PUGs where people don't know how to manage threat, but in guild runs the frontloading should be less of an issue I would think. I also think that on bosses sanctity will add more threat over the length of the fight, especially considering the mana saved from not using avenger's shield could be put into other threat causing skills as well. So this becomes a talent used on trash pulls. Still useful, but trash is called trash for a reason.
Argent defender: I kind of like the idea of this skill, but yet kind of don't. Its a good way to help a healer who has fallen behind catch back up. I should appreciate that alot since I have a nasty habit as a healer of falling behind. Yet I know that that is just me not playing my healer enough and not playing as well as I should. So in my mind this also kind of becomes a PUG talent. I worry that in most situations it will just never really matter.
Anticipation/Reckoning: Here we have a choice of where to pull points from. As gear gets better anticipation becomes less needed. Now it does add some flexibility. It allows different gear choices in that its less defence that your gear has to get in total. So its nice to have, but not absolutely required. Reckoning is also nice to have. It suffers from the same problem as retribution aura though. As your gear gets better reckoning will proc less. So it might be possible to do away with the talent when you reach a certain gear level. Now I'm going to wager that in most heroics and in raids mobs will always get some damage through blocks and so you aren't going to be dodging/parrying all the attacks. There will still be plenty of chances for it to proc. It does get less as gear improves though. That is why I list it as an option.
Now the thing with all of these choices is that they are basically gear dependent. All of these skills that are being lost are good when you don't have that good of gear, but become less important as you get better gear. The exception to that could be avenger's shield, but I feel that even that gets worse as your gear gets better since your overall aggro generation should go up and so you need the frontloading less. From looking at gear it feels to me like it won't be too hard to get pretty decent gear. Questing in itself seems to give a decent set and there are alot of crafted items to add with it. Several slots are rep rewards as well so don't require luck in getting a drop, but just time put in. So I feel like it might be possible to lose these talents, though I'm by no means sure. I've very torn about it. Of course there is the option of keeping them until I get the gear and then respecing out of them, but I'm not the biggest fan of that. I like to play with the same build as much as possible.
Now for what is gained.
Sanctity aura: Added holy damage means more threat and more dps as well. The majority of a paladin's threat comes from holy damage and so a 10% boost seems pretty nice to me. In addition that 10% should be further boosted by righteous fury so the threat part of it is even more than a 10% gain. Even on AOE pulls, with a decent amount of spell damage I feel like this could be more threat and damage that retribution aura provides.
Improved sanctity aura: It increases the damage done by the whole party. It feels like the only non-resist aura that really gives any gain to the rest of the group. In addition it affects my damage as well. So thats 2%+righteous fury more threat.
Crusade: more damage and threat against select mob types. Situationally useful. I feel like there are alot of those types in instances though. Not a great talent, but semi-decent filler.
Pursuit of justice: paladins have no intercept type ability. Their taunt is ranged so that helps, but if I need to catch a mob the run speed will help. Again, not great, but semi-decent filler.
Vindication: Doesn't work on most bosses. Should work on heroic trash. Like I said earlier though, trash is trash for a reason. So definately the weakest of the gains. Pretty questionable really.
So basically the gain is a good aura that helps the whole group and a couple minor filler talents. What is lost is a good skill and a couple of talents that might be nullified by gear. Thus I'm torn. I see arguements for both sides and I'm just not sure which way I really want to go.
0/49/12 VS 0/38/23
My plan was to go 0/49/12 and to run retribution aura while tanking. As I get better and better gear retribution aura will start procing less since I will be avoiding more hits. So this made me start debating my aura choice. Devotion aura has always seemed rather unimpressive as well. This led me down the path to the second build. It gives me access to improved sanctity aura which gives 10% more holy damage and 2% more total damage. So where retribution gets worse with better gearing, sanctity gets better as your gear improves. In addition, retribution does almost nothing for the rest of the group since they shouldn't be getting hit. Improved sanctity gives 2% more damage to the rest of the group and so thus is of use there. Given the choice between the two auras I'm really starting to lean towards sanctity. I'd like to hear thoughts from other people on this though. I've never seen it used at all in game and so there has to be reasons why.
Now its not actually a straight swap though. Other talents are lost and gained so that has to be considered as well. The switch means losing avenger's shield, ardent defender, and either anticipation or reckoning. meanwhile it gains sanctity aura, the improvement for it, crusade, pursuit of justice, and vindication. First I'll talk about the losses.
Avenger's shield: It gives a good head start on aggro, kills runners, and can be fit in many other times as well. So its a good solid talent that does help a good amount. In my mind its the one big loss from the switch. I have been noticing that it is quite the mana hog though. Now I'm not geared yet (only lvl 53 so this is all theory) and so that could be why it feels like a hog. I'm just unsure that I will really miss the skill. It'll help for sure in PUGs where people don't know how to manage threat, but in guild runs the frontloading should be less of an issue I would think. I also think that on bosses sanctity will add more threat over the length of the fight, especially considering the mana saved from not using avenger's shield could be put into other threat causing skills as well. So this becomes a talent used on trash pulls. Still useful, but trash is called trash for a reason.
Argent defender: I kind of like the idea of this skill, but yet kind of don't. Its a good way to help a healer who has fallen behind catch back up. I should appreciate that alot since I have a nasty habit as a healer of falling behind. Yet I know that that is just me not playing my healer enough and not playing as well as I should. So in my mind this also kind of becomes a PUG talent. I worry that in most situations it will just never really matter.
Anticipation/Reckoning: Here we have a choice of where to pull points from. As gear gets better anticipation becomes less needed. Now it does add some flexibility. It allows different gear choices in that its less defence that your gear has to get in total. So its nice to have, but not absolutely required. Reckoning is also nice to have. It suffers from the same problem as retribution aura though. As your gear gets better reckoning will proc less. So it might be possible to do away with the talent when you reach a certain gear level. Now I'm going to wager that in most heroics and in raids mobs will always get some damage through blocks and so you aren't going to be dodging/parrying all the attacks. There will still be plenty of chances for it to proc. It does get less as gear improves though. That is why I list it as an option.
Now the thing with all of these choices is that they are basically gear dependent. All of these skills that are being lost are good when you don't have that good of gear, but become less important as you get better gear. The exception to that could be avenger's shield, but I feel that even that gets worse as your gear gets better since your overall aggro generation should go up and so you need the frontloading less. From looking at gear it feels to me like it won't be too hard to get pretty decent gear. Questing in itself seems to give a decent set and there are alot of crafted items to add with it. Several slots are rep rewards as well so don't require luck in getting a drop, but just time put in. So I feel like it might be possible to lose these talents, though I'm by no means sure. I've very torn about it. Of course there is the option of keeping them until I get the gear and then respecing out of them, but I'm not the biggest fan of that. I like to play with the same build as much as possible.
Now for what is gained.
Sanctity aura: Added holy damage means more threat and more dps as well. The majority of a paladin's threat comes from holy damage and so a 10% boost seems pretty nice to me. In addition that 10% should be further boosted by righteous fury so the threat part of it is even more than a 10% gain. Even on AOE pulls, with a decent amount of spell damage I feel like this could be more threat and damage that retribution aura provides.
Improved sanctity aura: It increases the damage done by the whole party. It feels like the only non-resist aura that really gives any gain to the rest of the group. In addition it affects my damage as well. So thats 2%+righteous fury more threat.
Crusade: more damage and threat against select mob types. Situationally useful. I feel like there are alot of those types in instances though. Not a great talent, but semi-decent filler.
Pursuit of justice: paladins have no intercept type ability. Their taunt is ranged so that helps, but if I need to catch a mob the run speed will help. Again, not great, but semi-decent filler.
Vindication: Doesn't work on most bosses. Should work on heroic trash. Like I said earlier though, trash is trash for a reason. So definately the weakest of the gains. Pretty questionable really.
So basically the gain is a good aura that helps the whole group and a couple minor filler talents. What is lost is a good skill and a couple of talents that might be nullified by gear. Thus I'm torn. I see arguements for both sides and I'm just not sure which way I really want to go.