08-23-2007, 06:50 PM
I don't like tanking without shield slam. I really don't. Kam leveled as fury because at the time it was a spec that I had very little experience with. I tanked one PuG and one mostly Lurkers run in Ramparts with that spec and then went and respec'd to prot. I could tank as fury, but I didn't feel comfortable doing it at all, mainly because bloodthirst is not shield slam as far as aggro goes (and it's not just the 10 rage difference). But as Conc and Wimpy and other warriors have proved time and time again (and I think Tal was MS on his warrior and main tanking Kara until they got to prince with their learning runs) you don't have to be prot to tank a lot of stuff in TBC. But for me the comfort level on tanking without some some the deep prot talents just isn't there. I'm not saying you won't be able to deal with it, but keep it in mind. The tanking "feel" is going to change a lot I think.
I also thought about taking Kam to a 31/30 build. When leveling I was really slow on getting imp zerker stance and rampage. Part of that is that in the 40's and 50's your AP numbers are low enough that staying in battle and getting overpowers (since I didn't have tactical mastery so swapping could be a huge rage loss or making timing a lot harder) generally gave me more DPS. But I did have rampage and imp zerker for a while while in Outlands doing stuff in hellfire (I did a respec at like L56 to tweak some talents). It was a big DPS boost at that stage in the game. Zerker stance being 10% more AP and 3% more crit really upped the DPS a lot compared to not having them. Rampage was actually kind of fun, though maintaining it up could start to be an annoyance, but being able to push 1600 AP self buffed at L58 was fun.
But the 31/30 build does offer a few other things for an off tank. Having the 12 rage vs 15 rage sunders means you can help the MT get that sunder stack up faster. Sunder is not really a first choice use of global cooldowns for aggro, but you want it stacked for the physical DPS to up damage. Having an off tank that can put it up does help the raid. Same thing if you go imp demo shout over unbridled wrath (though not having unbridled does hurt the rage a fair bit when you aren't taking damage. But keep in mind that last I checked Errol's screech and imp demo shout get you pretty close to the cap on dropping mobs AP. I've paid attention to the damage the tank is taking and I can notice when I can keep screech up with Errol and when I can't as far as the damage the tank is taking. Imp demo is basically normal demo + Errol (Imp demo is 140 more AP reduction, top rank screech is 210).
However as mentioned the 10% weapon damage is not going to beat out the 10% more AP and rampage that you are giving up for it as far as damage. Imp sunder, Conc blow and 10% more damage isn't really going to up your tanking that much (it will get you more aggro while tanking because you won't be in zerker and I don't think you can use rampage in def stance, even if you can 10% more damage should still be more aggro than 250 AP and the loss of the GCD every 30 seconds or so to maintain the stack).
From a guild point of view, it does help to have 3 prot warriors around for raiding because it seems the 25 mans are happier with 4 tanks on them. That could be done with 1 prot warrior, and a combo of feral druids and prot pallies as well, but having 2 prot warirors, 1 feral and 1 prot pally is generally what we are going to have. But having the 3 prot warriors in the guild means if one is on vaction for a few weeks we are better able to field raids. But yeah it's tough to do something like Kara with 2 prot warriors on the run. You don't need that much tanking. A feral druid in DPS gear is generally way more than enough and they are way better DPS. A DPS warrior in tank gear is more than adequate for all the off tanking as well. So yeah I really understand your desire to respec.
As for the talents. I'm not sure what the value of 1 rage every 3 seconds from imp zerker rage is. I think you do want to keep it if you give up unbridled wrath for imp demo because you will want some kind of extra rage generation when you aren't taking damage I think (though I've not really had a fury warrior raid buffed I'm not sure what rage generation is like from just white damage driving it). Improved execute is a bigger damage boost than many people give it credit for as well. In raids you will be able to spam execute. Having it take 5 rage less does add up.
On your 41/20 build I'm also not sure if 1% more hit is better than the 2% more AP or the imp zerker rage points. I think you really want to max out imp zerker stance if you put points in it.
Dunno I'm not the best at warrior DPS either. Those are just my thoughts.
I also thought about taking Kam to a 31/30 build. When leveling I was really slow on getting imp zerker stance and rampage. Part of that is that in the 40's and 50's your AP numbers are low enough that staying in battle and getting overpowers (since I didn't have tactical mastery so swapping could be a huge rage loss or making timing a lot harder) generally gave me more DPS. But I did have rampage and imp zerker for a while while in Outlands doing stuff in hellfire (I did a respec at like L56 to tweak some talents). It was a big DPS boost at that stage in the game. Zerker stance being 10% more AP and 3% more crit really upped the DPS a lot compared to not having them. Rampage was actually kind of fun, though maintaining it up could start to be an annoyance, but being able to push 1600 AP self buffed at L58 was fun.
But the 31/30 build does offer a few other things for an off tank. Having the 12 rage vs 15 rage sunders means you can help the MT get that sunder stack up faster. Sunder is not really a first choice use of global cooldowns for aggro, but you want it stacked for the physical DPS to up damage. Having an off tank that can put it up does help the raid. Same thing if you go imp demo shout over unbridled wrath (though not having unbridled does hurt the rage a fair bit when you aren't taking damage. But keep in mind that last I checked Errol's screech and imp demo shout get you pretty close to the cap on dropping mobs AP. I've paid attention to the damage the tank is taking and I can notice when I can keep screech up with Errol and when I can't as far as the damage the tank is taking. Imp demo is basically normal demo + Errol (Imp demo is 140 more AP reduction, top rank screech is 210).
However as mentioned the 10% weapon damage is not going to beat out the 10% more AP and rampage that you are giving up for it as far as damage. Imp sunder, Conc blow and 10% more damage isn't really going to up your tanking that much (it will get you more aggro while tanking because you won't be in zerker and I don't think you can use rampage in def stance, even if you can 10% more damage should still be more aggro than 250 AP and the loss of the GCD every 30 seconds or so to maintain the stack).
From a guild point of view, it does help to have 3 prot warriors around for raiding because it seems the 25 mans are happier with 4 tanks on them. That could be done with 1 prot warrior, and a combo of feral druids and prot pallies as well, but having 2 prot warirors, 1 feral and 1 prot pally is generally what we are going to have. But having the 3 prot warriors in the guild means if one is on vaction for a few weeks we are better able to field raids. But yeah it's tough to do something like Kara with 2 prot warriors on the run. You don't need that much tanking. A feral druid in DPS gear is generally way more than enough and they are way better DPS. A DPS warrior in tank gear is more than adequate for all the off tanking as well. So yeah I really understand your desire to respec.
As for the talents. I'm not sure what the value of 1 rage every 3 seconds from imp zerker rage is. I think you do want to keep it if you give up unbridled wrath for imp demo because you will want some kind of extra rage generation when you aren't taking damage I think (though I've not really had a fury warrior raid buffed I'm not sure what rage generation is like from just white damage driving it). Improved execute is a bigger damage boost than many people give it credit for as well. In raids you will be able to spam execute. Having it take 5 rage less does add up.
On your 41/20 build I'm also not sure if 1% more hit is better than the 2% more AP or the imp zerker rage points. I think you really want to max out imp zerker stance if you put points in it.
Dunno I'm not the best at warrior DPS either. Those are just my thoughts.
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It's all just zeroes and ones and duct tape in the end.
It's all just zeroes and ones and duct tape in the end.