11-16-2006, 11:46 PM
Alright. Given at least 2 of every class and 7 "floaters" I'm thinking the mix might end up something like this:
Warriors: 3
Paladins: 2
Druids: 3
Hunters: 3
Shaman: 2
Rogues: 3
Mages: 3
Priests: 3
Warlocks: 3
That gives you 10 people that can heal but likely generally won't need to heal. 5-7 dedicated healers should be plenty.
Tank Group
MT (warrior or feral druid)
OT (warrior or feral druid)
Paladin
Warlock
Shaman
With windfury procs no longer generating rage for warriors and crits now generating more rage, grace of air is likely the totem to go with. The druid and shaman both get a bigger benefit from GoA (unless the whole weapon proc working for druids now includes windfury). The shaman gets the benefit of course because their self buff is better than the totem and WF totem does nothing for them. The extra dodge that it gives (4-5% at least) is nice as well. But that is just a guess. If your tanks can't stay within 30 yards of each other for totems/aura then you'll have to split them up someway to help with that.
Melee DPS Group
Rogue
Rogue
Rogue
Warrior
Shaman
Yep, pretty much keep it just like a horde DPS group. IF you have an LotP druid, and they aren't playing the OT job, replace a rogue with them.
Magic DPS group
Mage
Mage
Mage
Lock
Shaman/Moonkin (If you have either)
Ranged/Mixed DPS group
BM Hunter
TSA Hunter
Warrior
Rogue/retnoob pally/feral druid/DPS shaman/Warrior
Shadow Priest
Why the shadow priest here? They can do VE and VT (mana and health). Assuming you can have a hunter pet out (like you can in pretty much all of ZG, AQ20, and MC) the VE will keep the pet up, the VT will keep the hunters in mana (this may not matter as much with judgement and blessing of wisdom, but coming for a horde side keeping that hunter from having to FD drink and with the new damage models could be huge). The BM hunter can be anywhere really when the pet is usable. The pet proc is simply all damage by 3% so as best as I can tell this helps mages or rogues or anyone. If the BM hunter uses a pet that does a party buff like a wolf then that is still helping 4 people in that group as well. Leaching TSA from the marks hunter helps the BM hunter too.
Healer Group
Priest
Priest
Tree Druid
Lock
Paladin/shaman/druid whatever other healer.
Really the big issues seem to be.
1. What do you do with the hunters?
2. What do you do with the shaman?
3. What do you do with the druids?
I actually think that druid tanks will be very desirable and I figure a druid tank is still likely to have improved leader of the pack. I do agree that will be nice in the tank group assuming that you can cover two tanks with the auras.
I like to give a warlock to the healers to give them an imp as well for more life. Having more survivable healers is good.
Hunters are a bit odd. Beastmasters, depending on the instances will provide some nice group bonuses, if it is better than TSA for some classes I'm not sure. Marks hunters (TSA) provide less to rogues and warriors than a shaman or warrior does (battle shout is 3x the AP, shaman totems are more AP and more damage). Hunters also can't leach much from a group, except for what shaman provide. But Grace of Air is not going to be as big as it used to be with the changes to agility. Mana stream/tide won't be as big a deal with judgement of wisdom/blessing of wisdom (you want hawk up in a raid, not the mana regen aura is my thought, you want extrenal sources to give you that mana). Survival hunters don't provide group buffs. Like a paladin or improved hunters mark hunter they provide mostly raid buffs so it doesn't matter where you put them.
Druids depend a lot on spec. You want the tree in with the heal spec folks of course. Imp leader of that pack for a rogue is also basically a good VE heal too. You might even want one in with a BM hunter because the high crit rate on the hunter pets it could really help the longevity of the pet. My pet with only 90 trained FR pushes 200 FR buffed (just Mark) thanks to the pet getting FR from my gear now with the changes.
Shaman used to be a lot simpler. They gave huge benefit to melee DPS and horde side with the old windfury gave a big aggro boost to the tank. But if you only run 2 of them where do you put them? Aggro might not be as big of an issue, the MT might not need them as bad, so the new totem for mages and locks could be the way to go.
Only 2 paladins for blessings means you can do something like:
Hunters: Wisdom, Kings (no need for salv, FD takes care of that)
Warriors: Kings, Might (though DPS warriors probably don't want that, they want Salv)
Rogues: Salv, Might or Kings (not sure which they perfer, might is more DPS, kings is more survival)
Healers: Kings, Wisdom (again healer aggro isn't generally a big deal in raids no need for salv)
Shaman: Wisdom, Kings/Salv (DPS shaman burn mana pretty quick and the healers having more is all good, the DPS shaman will likely want Salv over Kings though)
Paladins: Wisdom, Kings/Might (again pallies don't pull aggro salv is mostly a waste)
Locks: Salv, Wisdom (maybe Kings for more crits from int, not sure how much extra DPS wisdom means from less tapping time)
Mages: Salv, Wisdom
Of course in the really aggro sensative fights that shaman in with the rogues and the DPS warrior might even want to stack salv and tranquil air and not take GoA or Windfury.
The issue with only 2 paladins is that no one will get blessing of light. No Blessing of light is a bit hit to the paladins supposed mana effeciency.
But yeah 25 means that you pretty much get 3 of each class. And I still think 2 dedicated tanks (be they warriors or druids or a mix) and 2 others that can tank when needed. 5 dedicated healers but 8 to 10 that can heal.
Warriors: 3
Paladins: 2
Druids: 3
Hunters: 3
Shaman: 2
Rogues: 3
Mages: 3
Priests: 3
Warlocks: 3
That gives you 10 people that can heal but likely generally won't need to heal. 5-7 dedicated healers should be plenty.
Tank Group
MT (warrior or feral druid)
OT (warrior or feral druid)
Paladin
Warlock
Shaman
With windfury procs no longer generating rage for warriors and crits now generating more rage, grace of air is likely the totem to go with. The druid and shaman both get a bigger benefit from GoA (unless the whole weapon proc working for druids now includes windfury). The shaman gets the benefit of course because their self buff is better than the totem and WF totem does nothing for them. The extra dodge that it gives (4-5% at least) is nice as well. But that is just a guess. If your tanks can't stay within 30 yards of each other for totems/aura then you'll have to split them up someway to help with that.
Melee DPS Group
Rogue
Rogue
Rogue
Warrior
Shaman
Yep, pretty much keep it just like a horde DPS group. IF you have an LotP druid, and they aren't playing the OT job, replace a rogue with them.
Magic DPS group
Mage
Mage
Mage
Lock
Shaman/Moonkin (If you have either)
Ranged/Mixed DPS group
BM Hunter
TSA Hunter
Warrior
Rogue/retnoob pally/feral druid/DPS shaman/Warrior
Shadow Priest
Why the shadow priest here? They can do VE and VT (mana and health). Assuming you can have a hunter pet out (like you can in pretty much all of ZG, AQ20, and MC) the VE will keep the pet up, the VT will keep the hunters in mana (this may not matter as much with judgement and blessing of wisdom, but coming for a horde side keeping that hunter from having to FD drink and with the new damage models could be huge). The BM hunter can be anywhere really when the pet is usable. The pet proc is simply all damage by 3% so as best as I can tell this helps mages or rogues or anyone. If the BM hunter uses a pet that does a party buff like a wolf then that is still helping 4 people in that group as well. Leaching TSA from the marks hunter helps the BM hunter too.
Healer Group
Priest
Priest
Tree Druid
Lock
Paladin/shaman/druid whatever other healer.
Really the big issues seem to be.
1. What do you do with the hunters?
2. What do you do with the shaman?
3. What do you do with the druids?
I actually think that druid tanks will be very desirable and I figure a druid tank is still likely to have improved leader of the pack. I do agree that will be nice in the tank group assuming that you can cover two tanks with the auras.
I like to give a warlock to the healers to give them an imp as well for more life. Having more survivable healers is good.
Hunters are a bit odd. Beastmasters, depending on the instances will provide some nice group bonuses, if it is better than TSA for some classes I'm not sure. Marks hunters (TSA) provide less to rogues and warriors than a shaman or warrior does (battle shout is 3x the AP, shaman totems are more AP and more damage). Hunters also can't leach much from a group, except for what shaman provide. But Grace of Air is not going to be as big as it used to be with the changes to agility. Mana stream/tide won't be as big a deal with judgement of wisdom/blessing of wisdom (you want hawk up in a raid, not the mana regen aura is my thought, you want extrenal sources to give you that mana). Survival hunters don't provide group buffs. Like a paladin or improved hunters mark hunter they provide mostly raid buffs so it doesn't matter where you put them.
Druids depend a lot on spec. You want the tree in with the heal spec folks of course. Imp leader of that pack for a rogue is also basically a good VE heal too. You might even want one in with a BM hunter because the high crit rate on the hunter pets it could really help the longevity of the pet. My pet with only 90 trained FR pushes 200 FR buffed (just Mark) thanks to the pet getting FR from my gear now with the changes.
Shaman used to be a lot simpler. They gave huge benefit to melee DPS and horde side with the old windfury gave a big aggro boost to the tank. But if you only run 2 of them where do you put them? Aggro might not be as big of an issue, the MT might not need them as bad, so the new totem for mages and locks could be the way to go.
Only 2 paladins for blessings means you can do something like:
Hunters: Wisdom, Kings (no need for salv, FD takes care of that)
Warriors: Kings, Might (though DPS warriors probably don't want that, they want Salv)
Rogues: Salv, Might or Kings (not sure which they perfer, might is more DPS, kings is more survival)
Healers: Kings, Wisdom (again healer aggro isn't generally a big deal in raids no need for salv)
Shaman: Wisdom, Kings/Salv (DPS shaman burn mana pretty quick and the healers having more is all good, the DPS shaman will likely want Salv over Kings though)
Paladins: Wisdom, Kings/Might (again pallies don't pull aggro salv is mostly a waste)
Locks: Salv, Wisdom (maybe Kings for more crits from int, not sure how much extra DPS wisdom means from less tapping time)
Mages: Salv, Wisdom
Of course in the really aggro sensative fights that shaman in with the rogues and the DPS warrior might even want to stack salv and tranquil air and not take GoA or Windfury.
The issue with only 2 paladins is that no one will get blessing of light. No Blessing of light is a bit hit to the paladins supposed mana effeciency.
But yeah 25 means that you pretty much get 3 of each class. And I still think 2 dedicated tanks (be they warriors or druids or a mix) and 2 others that can tank when needed. 5 dedicated healers but 8 to 10 that can heal.
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It's all just zeroes and ones and duct tape in the end.
It's all just zeroes and ones and duct tape in the end.