Senate report concludes: no proof of contact between

[kandrathe]

Lissa, I hope you are having as much fun as I am with this thread. I am really enjoying this set of discussions. :-)

Ah, how soon we forget Sarijevo in August of 1914. One event destabilized and brought on World War I. Who knows for sure if a similar event couldn't have done the same. Remember, Communism had just fallen in Eastern Europe just 5 years prior. There's no telling what may have happened if we hadn't have stepped in.

I can't help feeling "damned if we do, and damned if we don't" then. Who knows what would have happened had we not toppled Saddam? Who knows what would have happened had we not over reacted to the Gulf of Tonkin incident?

The problem is, humanity is fallable. Graft is the currency of politics now in the US. And I have to question any person that wants to be in our government.

Me too. It's like cops, those who really really want to be cops, probably should be excluded.

The government does allow you to purchase weapons with which to defend youself. The government allows you to purchase handguns and rifles with only minor annoyances. Would you prefer that our government acted like the British where a normal citizen was not allowed to own handguns?

No, we fought a revolutionary war for a reason. I would also prefer that they would stop trying to make end runs around the 2nd amendment with annoyances, like "military style". Ok, so Gucci is ok, but khaki is evil. Got it.

You'll also note that in the case of both Ruby Ridge and Waco, officers went to server warrants and were met with hostile gun fire. In both cases, the people involved were being served warrants for illegal activities (Ruby Ridge happened to be someone that was sawing off the barrels of shotguns for increased concealability and was cutting the barrels lengths to well below the regulated barrel lenght allowed of 18 inches). The tragedy of both cases is the people that commited the crimes refused to own up to the crimes and put innocent bystanders in harms way instead of surrendering. While the government acted overzealous in the case of Ruby Ridge, they acted to try and server warrants and bring the issues to the court system where they belonged.

Well, I don't want to rehash those incidents, but your facts about Ruby Ridge are wrong. Weaver contends that the ATF shortened the stock to have leverage to get him to become an informant against a local White Supremicist group.

So, to answer your question, why shouldn't citizen have access to military hardware, it's rather simple, the weapons that are already commonly available are lethal enough, there is no need to increase the level of lethality a law abiding citizen needs to defend themselves. ... I've answered your questions, but still need to answer mine.

You think they are powerful enough, and maybe many of our fellow citizens also think as you do. But, if I'm protected by the 2nd amendment and a good citizen, shouldn't I be trusted to determine that for myself? I'd say that if one of my law abiding neighbors wanted to own an Abrams tank, and they can afford it, and maintain it, then let them. Once they use it for illegal purposes, then I've got a problem with it.

If you truly have something to hide that is worth hiding from the government, why the hell are you writing it down somewhere? And lets face facts, throughout history, very few encryptions have not been broken (the only one that I can think of right off the top of my head is the Navajo code talkers as the only encryption method that was not broken). It wouldn't matter how much we try to increase encryption for the general populace, someone, somewhere would still want to decrypt it, so if you got something you don't want people to know, don't write it down.

Let's look at mail. It's a federal crime to tamper with mail. It's in a sealed envelope, and if anyone pryed it open you would know. What is wrong with wanting to insure a little electronic privacy?

At a quick glance, all the EOs from Jan 29 to Aug 17 of '01 are all frivalous. There was no state of emergency or similar problems.

Well, just looking at the one dated Aug 17th 2001;

The Export Administration Act of 1979, as amended, has been in lapse since August 21, 2001. In the absence of an Export Administration Act, the U.S. dual-use export control system continues to be dependent on the President's invocation of emergency powers under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act. As demonstrated by recent events, having a modern, coherent, and effective system of dual-use export controls -- to prevent terrorists, rogue states, and proliferators of weapons of mass destruction from accessing sensitive U.S.-origin goods and technology -- is now more important than ever. The Administration supports legislation to create a streamlined and strengthened export control system that effectively promotes both U.S. national security and U.S. economic interests.

It doesn't seem frivolous to me. Sounds like Congress dropped the ball.

Let me give you an idea of just what kinds of things the government has had and kept secret. Do you remember DAT (Digital Audio Tapes)? They came out in the early '90s, but they were being used the government, specifically the Navy, for a good 10 years before they were introduced to the public. How about Velcro, do you realize that the military has had access to noiseless velcro since the late 80s? There are many things that the government has had that it has kept secret about. So I wouldn't put anything past the government on what they have and what they don't have.

OMG!!! Noiseless velcro!!! Those b@st@rds!!!