07-24-2006, 12:39 PM
>So far in most CRPGs that use 3D graphics, the graphics end up being more of a hindrance to the gameplay than an enhancement. For example, imagine a melee fighter in NWN or WoW (or insert many other 3D CRPGs here) walking along in the great forest, when he encounters a firebreathing, flying drake. What is he going to do? He's going to run up and hit it with his sword, right? Could you do that if you were playing Quake? No, you couldn't even do it in Starcraft.
>These types of considerations aren't necessary for it to be a very good game, in the vein of Diablo II (which to me is a step down from Diablo in this regards, but that is debatable). But at the same time, if it ends up being "just" an updated graphics format for Diablo II style gameplay, it will be a bit of a shame.
Yep, while I would like to see that type of game as well, there's a couple of problems I've seen that sort of plagues the genre to the point of becoming an almost standard cliches'. A pretty bad set of cliches'.
That scenario with the drake (I'll assume you mean the dragon like type creature vs a fire breathing mallard.) would be pretty awesome. Unfortunately if it follows some of the usual cliches, it would pretty much screw any melee characters like you said. I've heard the usual excuse of 'well it follows reality that melee combat is inferior to missile combat due to range'. Why is it that 'realism' gets thrown in melee is mentioned, yet I don't hear it as much when something outlandish like a ranged attack eg: a bow chance to hit is equal no matter what the distance or the size of the target. Instead I can bet I'll hear 'oh well because we're not making a simulation here, we're balancing and striving for fun in a fantasy game'. I don't want a SCA simulator either, but it would be nice to have some sort of internal consistency, even for a fictional universe.
Maybe that drake is not only big, but a pretty heavy creature as well. Maybe he's a glider type, so if he decides to do a flaming strafing run there's a danger of stalling or even crash landing at lower altitudes, he might even have a slow turning radius. He might gain some thermal lifts from that fire breathing, but that kind of wing span for gliding might not be so manoueverable in that foresty terrain you described. Again I'm not asking for a 100% realistic flight sim of mythical creatures, just that I've been hearing all these things about how game technologies are getting closer to modeling physics in real time etc, to the point of using scripted events will soon seem quaint. Well what about applying those things to these type of games?
And I'm not buying the old excuse of 'oh well this universe has magic, therefore that drake can turn on a dime and hover and go warp speed because of uh...magic!' The way magic has been used in some c\rpg games is anything but magical to me. What about something even as simple as putting a cost\side effects to it. And I don't necessarily mean using a mana point system like a fuel gauge. Although even that could be used for this scenario. Maybe that drake could do all of that due to magic, but he might have to choose which abilities and for how long he can use it, before the physics and maybe even basic biology takes over and he may have to land and take a breather, opening the opportunity for the melee fighter a chance to attack. (Unless the drake lands in the middle of a lake or something, which by this point I would start to wonder if the game designer has some sort of bias against melee types, or just enjoys being a sadist to melee players.)
Basically I rarely see magic being treated as magical and most importantly mysterious and sometimes very dangerous. Instead I usually see it used as a way to label item progression, or as a cure all patching compound for gaping consistency\plot holes. I get that we don't really have anything analogus to magic to compare to, well I guess high technology is pretty much the closest thing, but it'd be interesting I think to play a game where you might have to decide is it worth using this magical sword that may or may not have some terrible cost for using it, vs using this 'plain' sword that is very well crafted but otherwise has no magical properties. Vs just using it because magical>anything that is plain jane.
And another thing with melee and combat, I understand some of the appeal and convention of the genre. I get that the top melee weapon is usually a sword. It's a romantic and very iconic weapon. But there are other weapons out there. And I don't mean just as a means to highlight how crappy they are in comparison the the sword. It would be a refreshing change I think if someone explored more of the rock paper scissor angle instead of the good, better, best model.
I'm just getting slightly fed up with some of the sillier things like 'any sword cuts through any armor, axes are slightly worse, but maces are the worst against armored opponents'. What is it about this bias against blunt force trauma? That type of effect can kill people even when they're wearing modern body armor. Again I'm not saying that slavish realism should trump over believability or fun. But personally I think the more grounded the fantasy is in realism, the greater the chance for believability and immersion, and fun.
But enough of my rambling. Basicaly I could not agree more with you that if the next gen\upgrade for these gameplay types is just fancier and prettier 3D graphics, that would be a wasted opportunity. Maybe this kind of dream game needs a dream team. The fantasy league team consisting of: (D1) Blizzard\Condor, the nethack Dev Team, the now defunct Looking Glass and Troika, Valve and Id.
>These types of considerations aren't necessary for it to be a very good game, in the vein of Diablo II (which to me is a step down from Diablo in this regards, but that is debatable). But at the same time, if it ends up being "just" an updated graphics format for Diablo II style gameplay, it will be a bit of a shame.
Yep, while I would like to see that type of game as well, there's a couple of problems I've seen that sort of plagues the genre to the point of becoming an almost standard cliches'. A pretty bad set of cliches'.
That scenario with the drake (I'll assume you mean the dragon like type creature vs a fire breathing mallard.) would be pretty awesome. Unfortunately if it follows some of the usual cliches, it would pretty much screw any melee characters like you said. I've heard the usual excuse of 'well it follows reality that melee combat is inferior to missile combat due to range'. Why is it that 'realism' gets thrown in melee is mentioned, yet I don't hear it as much when something outlandish like a ranged attack eg: a bow chance to hit is equal no matter what the distance or the size of the target. Instead I can bet I'll hear 'oh well because we're not making a simulation here, we're balancing and striving for fun in a fantasy game'. I don't want a SCA simulator either, but it would be nice to have some sort of internal consistency, even for a fictional universe.
Maybe that drake is not only big, but a pretty heavy creature as well. Maybe he's a glider type, so if he decides to do a flaming strafing run there's a danger of stalling or even crash landing at lower altitudes, he might even have a slow turning radius. He might gain some thermal lifts from that fire breathing, but that kind of wing span for gliding might not be so manoueverable in that foresty terrain you described. Again I'm not asking for a 100% realistic flight sim of mythical creatures, just that I've been hearing all these things about how game technologies are getting closer to modeling physics in real time etc, to the point of using scripted events will soon seem quaint. Well what about applying those things to these type of games?
And I'm not buying the old excuse of 'oh well this universe has magic, therefore that drake can turn on a dime and hover and go warp speed because of uh...magic!' The way magic has been used in some c\rpg games is anything but magical to me. What about something even as simple as putting a cost\side effects to it. And I don't necessarily mean using a mana point system like a fuel gauge. Although even that could be used for this scenario. Maybe that drake could do all of that due to magic, but he might have to choose which abilities and for how long he can use it, before the physics and maybe even basic biology takes over and he may have to land and take a breather, opening the opportunity for the melee fighter a chance to attack. (Unless the drake lands in the middle of a lake or something, which by this point I would start to wonder if the game designer has some sort of bias against melee types, or just enjoys being a sadist to melee players.)
Basically I rarely see magic being treated as magical and most importantly mysterious and sometimes very dangerous. Instead I usually see it used as a way to label item progression, or as a cure all patching compound for gaping consistency\plot holes. I get that we don't really have anything analogus to magic to compare to, well I guess high technology is pretty much the closest thing, but it'd be interesting I think to play a game where you might have to decide is it worth using this magical sword that may or may not have some terrible cost for using it, vs using this 'plain' sword that is very well crafted but otherwise has no magical properties. Vs just using it because magical>anything that is plain jane.
And another thing with melee and combat, I understand some of the appeal and convention of the genre. I get that the top melee weapon is usually a sword. It's a romantic and very iconic weapon. But there are other weapons out there. And I don't mean just as a means to highlight how crappy they are in comparison the the sword. It would be a refreshing change I think if someone explored more of the rock paper scissor angle instead of the good, better, best model.
I'm just getting slightly fed up with some of the sillier things like 'any sword cuts through any armor, axes are slightly worse, but maces are the worst against armored opponents'. What is it about this bias against blunt force trauma? That type of effect can kill people even when they're wearing modern body armor. Again I'm not saying that slavish realism should trump over believability or fun. But personally I think the more grounded the fantasy is in realism, the greater the chance for believability and immersion, and fun.
But enough of my rambling. Basicaly I could not agree more with you that if the next gen\upgrade for these gameplay types is just fancier and prettier 3D graphics, that would be a wasted opportunity. Maybe this kind of dream game needs a dream team. The fantasy league team consisting of: (D1) Blizzard\Condor, the nethack Dev Team, the now defunct Looking Glass and Troika, Valve and Id.